Are we getting dumber?? De skilling of the automotive industry

sk8xr8 · 07-06-2010, 11:35 AM

G'day guys and girls, I am a qualified mechanic by trade, I have worked in the industry since I was 15 years old, icluding time working in automotive engineering building full chassis, roll cages, full tubs, mini's, prepping cars for crash tests at autoliv aust. and so on, I have had the pleasure of working with some brilliant people in this time, from my instructors at school, to fellow workmates and even the odd apprentice that ive trained have impressed me...

Something has been brought to my attention several times over a number of years that I thought I might discuss with you guys, it is the de skilling of the trade.

Are the youth of today being taught the same way that our older/senior guys have been?

The reason I ask is because of a conversation I had with my old trade school teacher the other day, he now owns his own business and has offered me a job on a number of occasions, and has told me a number of times that what the kids of today are being taught is rubbish compared to what used to be taught back in the day, I will admit that education is only as effective as the student is willing, but I would always go that little further to learn what I didnt understand, but by the same note, the resources to teach are always being stripped from our trade schools with each passing year, with the trade getting more and more technical every year, should we not be providing our new apprentices to the trade with access to the same training quality that was given back in the day??

What do you think?

Mr Hardware · 07-06-2010, 11:51 AM

Quite simply, the trade pays poorly, therefore attracts people who aren't as clever or as ambitious as possible. It was the pay and conditions that saw me turf the industry.

Pay peanuts = get monkeys.
When an entry-level IT job pays the same as a decent, qual mechanic position, you know something's going wrong.

Jim Goose · 07-06-2010, 12:03 PM

Its not just pay, look at the level of schooling.
Some kids are unable to read, write or add up anything in their heads.
Then look at our social "ills" as it were, the percentage of young people drinking till they puke and are confirmed alcoholics, plus the drug epidemic of popping pills etc is quite common.

Its not just a skills shortage, but a shortage of intelligence
Im not putting all youngens in that category, but its apparent that a lot (?) appear not interested in bettering themselves.

flappist · 07-06-2010, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Quite simply, the trade pays poorly, therefore attracts people who aren't as clever or as ambitious as possible. It was the pay and conditions that saw me turf the industry.

Pay peanuts = get monkeys.
When an entry-level IT job pays the same as a decent, qual mechanic position, you know something's going wrong.

Yes this is true but mostly because there are no qualifications or licenses need to work in IT.

IT is new and difficult to quantify with the majority of highly skilled people having no paper qualifications whatsoever and the drones have entire forests worth of certicates of proficency or corsed attended.

Almost every IT organisation I have dealt with is extremely inefficient as good IT techs are very rare so the drones just plod along allowing every job to fill any time available.

Higher wages are offered in the hope of aquiring dilligent staff which occasionally works but often just replaces you drones with other drones.

Hopefully one day IT will become regulated like other trades/professions and the quality will increase while the costs decrease.

66FAIRLANE · 07-06-2010, 12:10 PM

Don't get me started!!

Airmon · 07-06-2010, 12:15 PM

Well there is certaintly more of an attitude of replace rather then repair with new mechanics rather then older ones.
The TAFE course these days is focussed mainly on customer service and diagnosis. Finding out whats not working and replacing it, rather then finding out why its not working and fixing it.

There are still a few good ones, but hard to find and they become that way if they get paired with good tradesmen.

It depends where you work aswell. I've seen people do their apprenticeships at Dealers and just do servicing all day, they dont learn much. And I've seen people who work at private shops doing everything from body work to engine swaps on a regular basis, and they know a ridiculous amount of stuff.

I can't say what it was like back in the 70s, but I can bet you didn't turn up, plug your car into a computer, pull up a code and order a new part (thats probably a plug and wire).

sk8xr8 · 07-06-2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 66FAIRLANE

Don't get me started!!

66FAIRLANE, im keen to know what you think mate, ive been stirring on this for a while now because a lot of these young kids are turning qualified and just dont seem to know their backside from breakfast...

sk8xr8 · 07-06-2010, 12:19 PM

im not going to knock anyones opinion here, just keen to know if im the only one seeing this happen....

sk8xr8 · 07-06-2010, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airmon

Well there is certaintly more of an attitude of replace rather then repair with new mechanics rather then older ones.
The TAFE course these days is focussed mainly on customer service and diagnosis. Finding out whats not working and replacing it, rather then finding out why its not working and fixing it.

There are still a few good ones, but hard to find and they become that way if they get paired with good tradesmen.

It depends where you work aswell. I've seen people do their apprenticeships at Dealers and just do servicing all day, they dont learn much. And I've seen people who work at private shops doing everything from body work to engine swaps on a regular basis, and they know a ridiculous amount of stuff.

I can't say what it was like back in the 70s, but I can bet you didn't turn up, plug your car into a computer, pull up a code and order a new part (thats probably a plug and wire).

Mate, I think you are on the money, that is exactly my thoughts, I have worked at a dealership, although having said that im not the type that has the "that'll do" attitude, i always wanted to learn, but there just isnt anyone interested in teaching and it was really disappointing, a lot of what i know I have had to take the time to learn in my own time...

And trade school these days is precisely as you explained...

Hall_e · 07-06-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Quite simply, the trade pays poorly, therefore attracts people who aren't as clever or as ambitious as possible. It was the pay and conditions that saw me turf the industry.

Pay peanuts = get monkeys.
When an entry-level IT job pays the same as a decent, qual mechanic position, you know something's going wrong.

im a 4th yr electrician and this is exactly why i didnt become a mechanic if they paid the same id possibly consider getting into it

sk8xr8 · 07-06-2010, 12:36 PM

So does anyone think making it a licenced trade would make a difference then?

pottery beige · 07-06-2010, 12:44 PM

Tradeschool was a joke.. i passed choofin like a chimney...

Bushbasher · 07-06-2010, 12:56 PM

I think there is a definite dumbing down of the curriculum in schools to some degree to the lowest common denominator just so the kids get pushed through rather than have half the class get held back. you got to blame some of that on the quality of the teachers as well, but again that comes back to the dumbing down at uni as well. On top of that, the kids now days know they can't be touched because for the last 20 odd years the wowsers and bleeding heart do gooders have been making the most noise saying we can't hit our kids and it's wrong to do this and that to pull them into line so the kids run amuck with impunity - so the kids have no respect and the parents have little or no real control plus the teachers have no authority to really punish and so get no respect either so they don't bother to beat their heads against the wall with the rebellious kids et.al, blah, blah, blah, and so the slippery slope gets steeper and steeper.

Stop telling and showing the kids they can get away with anything short of murder, give power back to the parents and teachers to discipline the kids properly when they get too far out of line then the respect will return then personal responsibility might start to come back in to fashion and personal pride etc.and then they might knuckle down and actually learn some stuff.

I'll shut up now cos I'm going off at tangents and confusing the argument and the point a bit but you get the idea.

Like Fairlane66 said- Don't get me started. lol.

Bushbasher

Airmon · 07-06-2010, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottery beige

Tradeschool was a joke.. i passed choofin like a chimney...

I know alot of people who found it so boring they started smoking there because the smokers got to go outside for Smoko's.
If you made the course interesting alot less mechanics would smoke. :P

Bushbasher · 07-06-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airmon

I know alot of people who found it so boring they started smoking there because the smokers got to go outside for Smoko's.
If you made the course interesting alot less mechanics would smoke. :P

I'm guessing that's not the kind of Choofin pottery beige had in mind. haha.

gz1 · 07-06-2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Its not just pay, look at the level of schooling.
....
Its not just a skills shortage, but a shortage of intelligence
Im not putting all youngens in that category, but its apparent that a lot (?) appear not interested in bettering themselves.

If you think the Automotive industry is de-skilled you should see the IT industry.
And the reasons above by Jim Goose nail it.
Can't blame pay on that one, cause IT is fairly well paid however the (lack of) skills of some (a lot really) of the clowns that manage to pass and get in the industry is staggering.

T3ts50 · 07-06-2010, 01:33 PM

I started a pre-apprenticeship course straight out of high school when I was 18. The class was a mixed bag of high school drop outs and mature age students. The mature age students seemed to do really well and were interested in learning. While half of the younger kids (the other half were pretty bright and were very keen to learn) would constantly muck around, and constantly get kicked out of class. One kid even resorted to stabbing holes in a teachers radiator with a screw driver for a bit of fun.

66FAIRLANE · 07-06-2010, 01:35 PM

Heard some ridiculous BS on the radio the other day about having no more fixed terms for apprentices. They would just let the employer decide when they were ready! This might work with some good employers but would cause the divide between good and bad tradesman to grow even wider than now. I was lucky when I did my time because I worked for the government. This was good because they weren't afraid to let you do stuff. If you ph*cked it up you just did it it again. It taught me well. I learn't zero at trade school, it was a waste of time, I did enjoy the choof and 3 pints at lunch though.

Unfortunately there are very few people out there I trust to do anything these days. It seems rare to get a good job done first time. And I am not just talking mechanics. It's all trades. Just this weekend I crawled into the ceiling space because I thought the heater was not working quite right. Found the idiots (ok, not tradesman) that installed the AC draped a large heavy duct over one of the smaller heater ducts just because they couldn't be stuffed tying it up like they should have. Pulled the heater duct off of a splitter and we have been pumping hot air into the roof cavity for a month. And my missus always wonders why I insist on doing everything possible myself. I was always always taught to fix my own ph*ck ups. This teaches you pretty quick to do it right the first time.

66FAIRLANE · 07-06-2010, 01:38 PM

Oh, and this brings me to the term 'tradesman'. As far as I am concerned if you didn't do an apprentiship then its not a trade, its a skill.

Eleanor · 07-06-2010, 02:30 PM

There has to be some switched on youngsters out there but for some of the reasons mentioned above my mechanic still chooses to run his business himself.

He would have been one of the last to go through the 'real' hands on apprenticeship era with some trade-school supplementation.

When his former mentor/boss retired, he bought the business and has 'tried out' about 3 or 4 young blokes over the last few years, none of whom he kept on. He has such a good reputation around town there's generally a three week wait to book-in and he's so busy he could easily have another two blokes working for him but he chooses not to.

On the education side of it, you can't knock the dedication of those in the teaching and training game. 95%+ of teachers and trainers work their ***** off and are genuinely devoted and caring. I've seen it first hand as a Teachers Aide years ago and my partner is currently a Primary School Teacher.

There is a huge problem with the attitudes of many young people coming through, I believe, who have grown up in an ever-increasingly 'instant gratification' and 'throw-away society' and the education plans and models being handed down by government bureaucracies are changed so often it is becoming a joke.

Like I said at the start there are still a lot of switched on youngsters but it depends on the career paths they choose too. Look at how the mining industries have attracted a lot of the best people out there.

max · 07-06-2010, 02:42 PM

I hope the aircraft maintenance industry isn't suffering from this general malaise!

Windsor220 · 07-06-2010, 04:00 PM

The issue is that everyone is trying to make as much money as they can these days. I too started when I was 15 so have been in it for 10 years and its changed over that time. Dealerships are only interested in the money. Every job is timed and if your too slow then your out the door. Even if that means hiring people that cut corners etc. There is no time to teach the apprentices so they do 4 years spinning filters and selling throttle body cleans to boost there wage.

I lost my passion for it about a year ago as I was the most experienced tech on the floor at only 24 and was given all the diag jobs but was still hounded about time. Guys with good knowledge arent rewarded as they get a bigger workload but lose out on the bonus perks you get with servicing.

Its not a job that people tend to stay in either. Im looking at getting out of it now and I know others that have left too.

WiggyMK2 · 07-06-2010, 04:20 PM

I was an apprentice mechanic and quit about 6 months ago. I believe that the trade is serverely watered down from what it seems to have used to be. Training in tradeschool was fairly informative but working in the trade I learnt very little.

In thelarge dealership where I worked, we were given as little training as possible and then put in the deep end, expected to work by ourselves and meet efficiency targets right off the bat. This, coupled with the sub $7 an hour led me to quit and study something more stimulating to the brain. The ammount of knowledge I had gained on cars was mostly discovered by trial and error by myself.

I don't believe that the people becoming mechanics are dumber, more that the training is sub-standard and their is no incentive to stay and complete the apprenticeship, when you can earn more at macca's.

Thats my 2c,

Wiggy

Gaz · 07-06-2010, 04:35 PM

I'm 24 - have done two uni degrees, but I hate office work (woulda been good to figure that out years ago :P), but did the degree because 6 years ago if you were doing TEE subject's then you went to uni, now I'm seriously considering a mature age apprenticeship.

I've got an automotive interest obviously, but the potential pay and doing oil changes every day doesn't take me. So I'm considering an electrical apprenticeship, however it's not that easy at my age cause places need to pay you more. It's all about pay the least you can and waste minimum time these days.

sk8xr8 · 07-06-2010, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windsor220

The issue is that everyone is trying to make as much money as they can these days. I too started when I was 15 so have been in it for 10 years and its changed over that time. Dealerships are only interested in the money. Every job is timed and if your too slow then your out the door. Even if that means hiring people that cut corners etc. There is no time to teach the apprentices so they do 4 years spinning filters and selling throttle body cleans to boost there wage.

I lost my passion for it about a year ago as I was the most experienced tech on the floor at only 24 and was given all the diag jobs but was still hounded about time. Guys with good knowledge arent rewarded as they get a bigger workload but lose out on the bonus perks you get with servicing.

Its not a job that people tend to stay in either. Im looking at getting out of it now and I know others that have left too.

You and I are exactly the same mate, ive left the industry and now ive got people hassling me to go back, the really sad thing is that I know that I have a lot to offer, but im just tired of the half arsed attitude that a lot of people have now to good work and being good at what you do, its just all dollar signs, I personally dont blame all these young kids for not being taught that the "that'll do" attitude isnt good enough, you have to really want to do the best you can, its drilled into them that faster is better cause you get more money, forget about quality workmanship, as long as you charge through the a$$...

sk8xr8 · 07-06-2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiggyMK2

I don't believe that the people becoming mechanics are dumber, more that the training is sub-standard and their is no incentive to stay and complete the apprenticeship, when you can earn more at macca's.

Thats my 2c,

Wiggy

That was something we always joked about when I was doing my time aswell, I knew that I could earn double stacking shelves at safeway, dont have to buy thousands of dollars of tools a year, and no one busts your chops about "how long will it take you, the customer is waiting", and the work is stupidly easy!!!

platinumXR · 08-06-2010, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk8xr8

You and I are exactly the same mate, ive left the industry and now ive got people hassling me to go back, the really sad thing is that I know that I have a lot to offer, but im just tired of the half arsed attitude that a lot of people have now to good work and being good at what you do, its just all dollar signs, I personally dont blame all these young kids for not being taught that the "that'll do" attitude isnt good enough, you have to really want to do the best you can, its drilled into them that faster is better cause you get more money, forget about quality workmanship, as long as you charge through the a$$...

Pretty much common consensus. I got sick of being underpaid for doing above & beyond what was expected to produce quality and competent work.

My epiphany came when I was a foot deep in snow trying to get an axle out of a J2000 Jeep with an Oxy...and the straw breaker was on a NRMA Roadservice call one morning at about 2am trying to help yet another ungrateful & ignorant fool.

I'm glad I did my time as it gave me invaluable knowledge & mechanical dexterity but...there's no career in it anymore.

**Revolver** · 08-06-2010, 08:19 AM

Well, I shall input my 2c,

There are a number of points to be brought up here.

sk8xr8, you have been a little vague in your OP, what do you mean by de skilling? What are you seeing in the trade today that you didnt see years ago, or vice versa (which ever way you wish too look at it). Im not going to pretend i'm as good a full qualified mechanic, I certainly know the way around my cars. No doubt your no spring chicken, & you, like all areas of employment have had to move with the times & advances in technology within the industry. However have you asked what really is applicable in todays automotive industry from what you first learned? Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying your an old man, get with the times, Im just putting it out there, how much has the industry changed over the years?

The reason I ask is, I work in a drafting office. My boss has been around for a few years, has sort of gone full circle, being that his newest client who subcontracts the work out his business is, his first employer. With this 'new' client, has meant a change of CAD programs, as the decision from the clients HO, was to shift into ArchiCAD, & off AutoCAD. (which was inevitable, just as going from drawingboard to CAD). Now ArCAD is a 3d modelling program, & where with AutoCAD you had to think of everthing & change: Plans elevation, Internals, & details, this new program, when you change on plan, it automatically changes the rest. In my bosses opinion, he says that "You dont need the course anymore, anyone can do this. Theres no need for construction knowledge. This does the thinking for you". Which can only mean less focussed & inteligent people will in 5-10 years time be drawing our houses to be built. A scary thought.

Let me ask you, in your opinion has the education system been too streamlined for its own good? Is becoming a mechanic too steamline to instill the appropriate attitiude & knowledge? Now in saying that, look at the mainstream school system, children are still being taught with mid 20th century idiologies & techniques. This could be part of the problem: the core foundations for learning. Without the base, you cant put the toppings on the pizza. We are now in the "information age", the "industrial age" has passed, & there have been growing pains for the world during this transition: Economy drops (stocks, property value, etc), & technology improvements, & IMO the core education system has not kept up with the worlds advances. Im not talking the mediums used to learn with, computers, teachers (well insome cases, yes), but study & reference material is also questonable. Its what information & learning techniques is being put forward with todays youngsters. I think that without that foundation children are growing up to be drones.

Now back in the 1890s, no doubt the master tradesmen of woodwork were asking the same question over the apprentices of woodworking against the trade of metalworking when it was the newest trade. Just as you are from of the Automotive industry to IT. The fact is, the newer generation will always go with whats hip & new, & the way to get people employed onto the newest & hip thing is, the renumeration. As said before, pay penuts, get monkeys. However is the profit margin for these companies there to pay more than peanuts?

I suppose that the other issue is the national psyche & attitude. But lets not go there shall we. This is no doubt aslo part of the learning foundation. They wont learn properly if everyone else is 'just passing' so the can get out & earn the money. Once again its the Australian "she'll be right mate' attitude. Far too laid back for any industry.

or maybe your right on the money with the title, we're just getting dumber....

302 XC · 08-06-2010, 08:53 AM

coming from a heavy engineering back ground (earth moving equipment)
my old boss was a great beleiver in apprentices (not to teach, because their wages were cheap)
he used to get them to do the laimest jobs over and over
he wasnt interested in " advancing" their skills (just cheap rates)
when their term was finished they moved on
he was also a great beleiver in so called college"engineers"
text book trained , limited hands on
great at making him look good
"ive got qualified engineers"
but they were well out of their depth,and used to cause massive confusion in the workshop, because out side of a text book they were hopeless
he didnt beleive in "tradesman" as such as they were trained to do it a perticular way and wernt flexible in their work ethic
the WHOLE problem with society today is makin $$$$$
nobody worries about long term
i know a trailer manufacturer and apprentices MUST fab and weld out a 6x4 trailer in 45mins or they are not required
(the trailer comes in kit form on a pallet)
massive can of worms

mik · 08-06-2010, 10:22 AM

skills are definatly lacking these days, old school teachers are mostly all gone, and the ones that are highly qaulified are`nt interested, most schools can`t afford to pay them, a friend i have known for many years , is now a teacher , he was trained old school engineering, toolmakeing/machineing and also CAD, he`s not far off retirement age, and was told he was way over qaulified for the job and they could`nt pay him what he was worth( but he`s happy to be doing the job he likes), i don`t see him often but when i do we end up talking shop.
invariably the comment is always the same " how can they be teachers" the young trade teachers don`t have a clue, many of the kids are dull , good with a computer...................., but many can`t spell to save themselves or write properly, many can`t do basic maths without a calculator, how is this a good basis for an apprentice or any other job?