what would have more top speed??

[flooded one]

this will probably start an argument. (not my intention)

which car would have more top speed if you removed the electronic speed limiter from both the FPV GT-F and the HSV GTS gen F??? A mate and myself where wondering about this. I know the GT-F clocked 297km/h when wheels magazine did that Target 300 thing, I can't seem to find info on final drive ratios for either car. I have seen dyno figures that have been published and it would suggest the GT-F really comes alive after 4000rpm where as the GTS would be pretty much power in an instant. I wonder if both cars have the same gearing?? (I don't know if they do or not) would this mean the GT-F would have better top end?? As far as I know the Gen F GTS has never been tested with the electronic speed limiter removed. any info on this matter would be greatly appreciated without starting a Holden vs Ford argument. (hopefully)

[Trump]

GT-F specs:

http://www.fpv.com.au/downloads/gtf_specs.pdf

VF GTS specs:

http://www.hsv.com.au/multimedia/HSV...-GEN-F-GTS.pdf

Enjoy

[flooded one]

thank you

[data_mine]

The manuals have pretty different ratios, the autos however are almost exactly the same. the GTS has a shorter diff ratio 3.23 vs 2.72 (for a ZF GT-F).

GTS has a 6200rpm limiter
GT-F has a 6250 limiter, so almost the same, we can ignore this too.

So you'd expect the GT-F to have a higher top speed (it's geared better for it).

It'll then come down to aerodynamics vs. power, is the GTS slipperier than a FG?

VF is listed on wikipedia as having a cd of 0.30 (not specified for the HSV range/GTS, but I guess it'd be slightly worse due to the bigger wing etc.).

Can't find anything specific for a GT-F (or any GT), but a FG2 has a 0.30 cd (FG-X takes that down to 0.29).

So that again is probably similar enough to ignore.

So we're left down to simply grunt.

GT-F gearing/rev limiter limits it to 410km/h
GTS gearing/rev limiter holds it to 380km/h

I don't know enough from the available data to pick a winner, I think it'd be close between the two and drag stopping things before gearing comes into play.

[jimt3te50]

Top speed was achieved in fifth in the GTF wasn't it?

[FGX-351]

Whoever is quicker to trade in on an Aurion.

[Express]

Given they are probably not designed to travel at the speed they could possibly achieve I would expect there would be a lot of lift.

Bowe said of the Ford during the speed test that it had gotten so light it was moving around across the road and that to me indicates it was on its aero limit.

[jimt3te50]

Originally Posted by Express

Given they are probably not designed to travel at the speed they could possibly achieve I would expect there would be a lot of lift.



Bowe said of the Ford during the speed test that it had gotten so light it was moving around across the road and that to me indicates it was on its aero limit.

I might be paraphrasing but I remember Bowe said he would never want to do it again

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Express

Given they are probably not designed to travel at the speed they could possibly achieve I would expect there would be a lot of lift.

Bowe said of the Ford during the speed test that it had gotten so light it was moving around across the road and that to me indicates it was on its aero limit.

APS did 301km/h in a tuned BA XR6T with ease. It however encountered the same problem with lift and it was uncontrollable at that speed and wandered all around the runway. Strangely though, I remember seeing a video of a turbocharged TF Magna (yes a Magna) being filmed at 290kph in the NT and it seemed to keep to the lane just fine. Maybe it was a fake video.

[flooded one]

it does sound like it would be very close. I don't know if they'd ever do a run like that in the GTS. I don't blame anyone if they didn't thou. especially when it comes to the car starting to lift

I think that would be when i'd back off lol

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

APS did 301km/h in a tuned BA XR6T with ease. It however encountered the same problem with lift and it was uncontrollable at that speed and wandered all around the runway. Strangely though, I remember seeing a video of a turbocharged TF Magna (yes a Magna) being filmed at 290kph in the NT and it seemed to keep to the lane just fine. Maybe it was a fake video.

I remember that APS one. I was amazed by that as well as the GT-F top speed run. 290km/h Magna?? that would be interesting to see. you would think it would be over the road as well at those speeds. the V6 Magnas went alright for what they were but they were another car that wasn't really designed for insane speed like that!!

[malazn mafia]

Any Aero or CD experts out there be able to advise what can be done to improve the Aero of a vehicle to avoid lift at high speeds? Would fitting the plastic undertrays from the FG 4cyl ecoboost (did they have these?) help at all?

12 years later, it would be nice for progress to see the last Falcon somehow significantly outrun it's ancestor, even if it's tuned or modified in some form.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by flooded one

I remember that APS one. I was amazed by that as well as the GT-F top speed run. 290km/h Magna?? that would be interesting to see. you would think it would be over the road as well at those speeds. the V6 Magnas went alright for what they were but they were another car that wasn't really designed for insane speed like that!!

http://youtu.be/D8Nps2pJous

Make of it what you will, but what I see is a TE/TF Magna, going at a respectable pace. What was the CD of those year models? They certainly look more aerodynamic than its contemporaries: box with curved edges EL Falcon or wonky narrow track VS Commodore.

[Express]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Any Aero or CD experts out there be able to advise what can be done to improve the Aero of a vehicle to avoid lift at high speeds? Would fitting the plastic undertrays from the FG 4cyl ecoboost (did they have these?) help at all?

12 years later, it would be nice for progress to see the last Falcon somehow significantly outrun it's ancestor, even if it's tuned or modified in some form.

Definitely the flatter the bottom the better it will stick along with other factors as well.

The fast Euros have fairly flat undersides and of cause the supercars even more so.

Running Fords and Holdens at around 300 km/h and over with stock body kits isn’t for the faint hearted, the term temporary Australian comes to mind.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

http://youtu.be/D8Nps2pJous

Make of it what you will, but what I see is a TE/TF Magna, going at a respectable pace. What was the CD of those year models? They certainly look more aerodynamic than its contemporaries: box with curved edges EL Falcon or wonky narrow track VS Commodore.

Its moving very quick and holding to the road better than what I thought it would!! according to Wikipedia they (TE/TF Magna) had a CD of 0.28.

[jimt3te50]

I'd love to do the 1000m sprint at racewars over here when mines done, but there'll be some aero mods for sure before I do, fastest I've been is 270 in mine and it was too floaty down the straight for my liking- that'd be exponential I reckon. For Bowe to feel unsafe in a Falcon at 300 isn't all that reassuring for lil old pleb me

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by jimt3te50

I'd love to do the 1000m sprint at racewars over here when mines done, but there'll be some aero mods for sure before I do, fastest I've been is 270 in mine and it was too floaty down the straight for my liking- that'd be exponential I reckon. For Bowe to feel unsafe in a Falcon at 300 isn't all that reassuring for lil old pleb me

FG2 GT at 253 kph was like driving on rails, could hold straight and even take sweeping curves at that speed. Amazing what 20 more kph can do.

[99AUXR]

I feel pretty stable at 240/250. Did some circuit work the other day and was getting 220 kmh down back straight every time.

[08G63T]

Originally Posted by Express

the term temporary Australian comes to mind.

Keep us motorcyclists out of this

Lowering it and maybe adding a front wing of some sort would help with keeping it stick to the ground a bit better.

[MITCHAY]

They are both bricks so if they even make 300km/h that's an achievement in itself but I would not want to be in one that's for sure.

They are plenty enough fun less than that though lucky for us

[Brian_H]

Originally Posted by jimt3te50

I'd love to do the 1000m sprint at racewars over here when mines done, but there'll be some aero mods for sure before I do, fastest I've been is 270 in mine and it was too floaty down the straight for my liking- that'd be exponential I reckon. For Bowe to feel unsafe in a Falcon at 300 isn't all that reassuring for lil old pleb me

Jim, I've only just noticed the wheels in the icon of your white FG-X. They look great but too small to see in the pic. What are they? A link or big pic of your car would be great or just the name and I can look them up. I'm trying to decide on a nice set for my Sprint for when she arrives. Cheers & thanks, Brian.

[asagaai]

Not sure of the ops question.

But, it would be interesting to do a top speed run with a 6 speed manual fgx xr8, lowered some 35mm, better shocks, with intercooler, walbro 460 fuel pump and reg, and tune.

Would have to crack 300 I would have thought, maybe reach 310kph?

I would myself make sure that the driveshaft was upgraded to a carbon fiber unit. Whenever I pushed rear drive vehicles at high speed the possibility of the driveshaft snapping and slicing the area underneath always worried me. At least with carbon fiber it would simply disintegrate.

[csv8]

Bugatti Veyron v Kawasaki H2R...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi5_GQ78wM8

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Any Aero or CD experts out there be able to advise what can be done to improve the Aero of a vehicle to avoid lift at high speeds? Would fitting the plastic undertrays from the FG 4cyl ecoboost (did they have these?) help at all?

12 years later, it would be nice for progress to see the last Falcon somehow significantly outrun it's ancestor, even if it's tuned or modified in some form.

Get rid of the bonnet bulge at the front and remove the rear wing.

Bonnet bulge acts like a wing lifting the front and the drag from the wing acts like a lever pushing the rear down and lifting the front up also.

Add the Sprints rear lip spoiler ;)


.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Get rid of the bonnet bulge at the front and remove the rear wing.

Bonnet bulge acts like a wing lifting the front and the drag from the wing acts like a lever pushing the rear down and lifting the front up also.

Add the Sprints rear lip spoiler ;)


.

So a lowered G6E turbo with no spoiler would be the best Aero candidate.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Get rid of the bonnet bulge at the front and remove the rear wing.

Bonnet bulge acts like a wing lifting the front and the drag from the wing acts like a lever pushing the rear down and lifting the front up also.

Add the Sprints rear lip spoiler ;)


.

I agree that airflow moving over an object, one side with more travel length, the other side less travel length, creates a high pressure/low pressure differential - and a resultant force from the high pressure to low pressure- in this case creates lift.

Cannot do much about the bonnet on a Falcon which is there to sheet the Miami intake plenum.

One way is the create rail channels under the car in effect a huge curve greater (in effect an upside down aeroplane wing) than the curve of the car above, thereby creating downforce by the low pressure system. Race cars use this- not economically feasible.

Another way is to lower the front end, increase the front spoiler, to reduce the airflow going under the car to reduce the magnitude of the lift caused by the high pressure cell under the car/ high pressure lift. This would be the most feasible for Falcon, lowering front end, and using the various racing front spoilers in use in v8 touring cars.

Hence, this is why in my post I mentioned dropping ride height 35 mm- cheap and practicable to do and still makes the Falcon pretty standard, while reducing the high pressure cell under the car and therefore the lift. What that will mean in terms of top end speed of a tuned intercooled fuel pumped FGX XR8- would love to have it tested to find out.

[blackf6]

Too flighty at speed. Scary stuff.

[blackf6]

Aerodynamic wall.

[mik]

Aero dynamics is interesting , Remember the old LH toranas / SLR 5000 , it was said the rear spoiler was worth 15 pounds down force at 100 mph , which is nothing really ,
i saw a tube clip recently of a bloke having a top speed run on the salt flats , he was doing ok on his last run , then the wind forces keeping the car staying on the ground or taking off like jumbo changed and he just flew through the air like a bird then hit the ground wit ha bang,
there is a point at which it aero dynamics becomes a knifes edge to either fly or stay on the ground, a few bags of cement under the bonnet or a nice heavy cast iron v8 would be a boon for a speed run.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by mik

Aero dynamics is interesting ,
there is a point at which it aero dynamics becomes a knifes edge to either fly or stay on the ground, a few bags of cement under the bonnet or a nice heavy cast iron v8 would be a boon for a speed run.

Yeah- those bespoke racing cars with low pressure creating wing tunnels, running underneath- many videos of the cars at high speed being upended in racing incidents, and those tunnels then act as wings and cause the car to actually climb up into the air...now that would be scary.

Personally, I think the FGX with lowered front end, deep front skirt, decent shocks, would do fine on a high speed run on a straight road in calm conditions.

And that brick front end -well the hp with intercooler, tune and walbro pump would take care of that up to a specific speed-and I am still very curious as to what speed that brick front end would be a match for the hp?