Holden want extra 265mil to stay

[FPV+fteT3]

Well holden have put a figure on it.

http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbu...a-265m-to-stay

Holden is pushing for an extra $265 million from the federal government to help it keep building cars in Australia.

The car maker is asking the Rudd government for the cash on top $275 million already pledged in federal and state aid, The Australian has reported.

The figure's a lot higher than the $60 million figure previously reported that Holden was seeking from the government.

Holden wants to secure the deal with Canberra before the upcoming election in case Labor loses and the Coalition refers industry assistance to the Productivity Commission.

Holden has said it costs more than $3000 extra to make a car in Australia than overseas.

Ford has already decided to stop local manufacturing in 2016.

Industry Minister Kim Carr on Thursday said negotiations with Holden were continuing.

But he said the government was not in the business of "having private conversations and then broadcasting them".

As well as negotiating with governments, Holden is also in the process of slashing 400 jobs at its Adelaide operations and negotiating a new labour agreement.

Workers will be asked to vote on any changes in August, in time for Holden to put a new business case to its General Motors parent company in September

In short if you want us to stay here building cars here is what we want no strings attached.

[P6LTD351]

Unfortunately, it's quite clear that it is over for Holden.

At least Ford made the decision.

Holden are the kings of spin.

I have no doubt that the decision to withdraw has already been made, regardless of whether they get this money or not.

Stop stringing people along with your fancy VF commercials - say it already.

[bobthebilda]

Ahhh thats not bad. $265 million to save 1750 manufacturing jobs. Thats only another $150,000 for each job.

[Dave R]

I'm all for supporting Holden but I think it will just be an expensive bandaid- how long is it going to last them? It isn't a long term solution. It's too easy to import cars here.

[Joe5619]

At least Holden is going down fighting!! I think it is better to ask & be told no, then not to ask at all & just close up. I respect what Holden is trying to do.

They just need to survive to the introductions of the next "all new" plat forms & then hopefully some real change is made with laws & the world itself might be very different place come 2020, there might just be a bright future for them.

It is just a same Ford has not even tried to be a part of that.

[BroadyFord]

I don't think that article is accurate.

Holden yesterday confirmed that the $60 million it was seeking was "well wide of the mark" but they would be seeking assistance in the form of other incentives rather than cash handouts. I think even Holden knows that asking for an extra $200 million+ will not be viewed favorably by both government and the public.

What's clear however is that the next 2-3 months will decide the future of what remains of the entire car industry.

I think it's line ball.

[buggerlugs]

http://www.news.com.au/national-news...-1226677361868
This blokes got the answer, and he wants to run the country !!!!

[Yellow_Festiva]

If we put that figure on the table what else can we build for that money?
A regional hospital or 3, improved transport where its needed, low cost housing to help with the population growth?

How about a huge building project to invest in the future? As much as I don't want to see Holden workers out of a job I believe it will just prolong the inevitable.

[Hulsty]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Ahhh thats not bad. $265 million to save 1750 manufacturing jobs. Thats only another $150,000 for each job.

There are alot more jobs than that involved and the government makes every cent back anyway in revenue and then some.

[LG17]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

http://www.news.com.au/national-news...-1226677361868
This blokes got the answer, and he wants to run the country !!!!

That's not as silly as it sounds.
It would never happen though as the 3 car makers couldn't work together.

[au2000]

i think you'll find that holden has made its decision & is now looking for a reason to blame other factors ie: lack of government support as its reason to justify its closure,
even most of the holden fans at work have said its coming..

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by LG17

That's not as silly as it sounds.
It would never happen though as the 3 car makers couldn't work together.

Ford, Holden and Toyota would need to set aside their differences here and have a huge auto manufacturing complex built somewhere.

Gonna happen? I wish it would but they would be scared of espionage and other rubbish mind games to suit their own agendas.

[kaniSS]

They know Rudd is a soft touch so they push for it now. I bet you they will get it too.

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

At least Holden is going down fighting!! I think it is better to ask & be told no, then not to ask at all & just close up. I respect what Holden is trying to do.

So we had 3 players, Ford ,Holden and Toyota
Out of the 3 , Ford nor Holden don't have a chance against Toyota,not even in the same league,unfortunately
So one bows out with dignity, the other obviously ,maybe not the smarter stays to fight toyota,and now want a big cash handout to do so ....
Its not goin to help,toyota has the runs on the board, they time and time again smash both Ford and Holden on sales
Any non blind person can see Holden Vs Toyota, Holden will loose, why invest more money on a dead horse
Its a two horse race and Toyota are leading, do you put money on the horse running last in a two horse race .......

[BroadyFord]

^^ You're forgetting that if Holden close, Toyota close too.

[Rodge]

^^Try and keep both the remaining horses reasonably well fed and watered I reckon.
Reality check. All Govt's who have motoring industries, support them in meaningful ways.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

If we put that figure on the table what else can we build for that money?
A regional hospital or 3, improved transport where its needed, low cost housing to help with the population growth?

How about a huge building project to invest in the future? As much as I don't want to see Holden workers out of a job I believe it will just prolong the inevitable.

You need to look at the returns, I am not sure what the government gets back from the entire auto industry (in taxes etc) But I believe they get back more than what they invest. Hence why governments all over the world protect their industries is that they know they are better off with it than with out.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

As a potential 'investor' I would want to know what my money is buying:

* How long is the investment for: 1 year? 3 years?
* What happens after that time? Does the company pull up stumps and leave the country?
* What is the longer term business plan of the company and how will this investment help fund that plan?
* If I give you this grant, are you going to come to me again in 6 months / 12 months time asking for another investment?
* How do you intend to provide me with a return on the investment I have made (ie what is in it for me)?
* What are the penalties if you do not deliver on your promised return on investment?

I hope the government is asking these and more questions before they seriously consider providing the requested investment.

Craig H

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Reality check. All Govt's who have motoring industries, support them in meaningful ways.

Exactly. All this carryon about subsidies "OMG HOW DARE U MY TACKSPAYER MONEY" ignores the fact that all automotive producing countries subsidise and protect their automotive industries - and the imported cars flooding our market these days all come from heavily subsidised and protected home markets. Australia is one of the most open car markets in the world.

That said...$265 Million...damn. That's pushing the friendship over the cliff I think.

[Hulsty]

Originally Posted by SB076

You need to look at the returns, I am not sure what the government gets back from the entire auto industry (in taxes etc) But I believe they get back more than what they invest. Hence why governments all over the world protect their industries is that they know they are better off with it than with out.

Exaclty right, the government does not just give away money for nothing, they are making a return on their investment. If the auto industry goes there will be less total government revenue for other items, Infrastructure, Education, health.

There is something like 20,000 (not sure exactly) people directly and indirectly employed by the auto industry, the government makes back income taxes and GST on what those people spend their money on, a bloody good return on investment.

[stang65]

Buy Fords assets , Let Holden close buy their Assets and make our own car here. We have the skills, the money stays in Australia to be re-invested...And say $@&(* you Yanky. Win Win...

[SS_01]

This is difficult, I really think that this is a lost cause, and ask how long you would be prepared to throw money in a pit to never see it return.
I know this is probably going to upset people, and to extent, even me, as i know people within Holden, but the Australian automotive Industry needs to fail for it to become possible for a smarter way forward to be invented, later, within Australia. Of course, thats a massive risk, cause they may not ever produce in Australia again, but i feel the Aussie Auto Industry hasn't learnt a damn thing since they started manufacturing here.

[SS_01]

Originally Posted by Hulsty

There is something like 20,000 (not sure exactly) people directly and indirectly employed by the auto industry, the government makes back income taxes and GST on what those people spend their money on, a bloody good return on investment.

This is true, but not all of them are going to lose there jobs, as is evident with ford, the Design and Engineering teams are staying on. This will most likely be the case with Holden as well, although i am unsure about toyota.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by SB076

You need to look at the returns, I am not sure what the government gets back from the entire auto industry (in taxes etc) But I believe they get back more than what they invest. Hence why governments all over the world protect their industries is that they know they are better off with it than with out.

Spot on. My suggestion was a spur of the moment idea. There is always a 'bigger picture' that takes into consideration all aspects of this problem as well as all possible returns on the investment, both direct and indirect.

How much has Holden got in the past? On what basis / terms was it given?

What guarantee do we have from Holden in terms of future viability?

We are talking big money, OUR money after all...... I would hate to chip in my bit and see the whole thing fold in a few years. On the other hand, if it means that thousands remain in a job and it secures the long term future of car building in this country I'm all for it.

[Pepscobra]

For how long will that grant keep Holden going for?

Has anyone done the sums to compare how much the cost of unemployment for the 1750 lost jobs Vs. cost of the extra funding?

1/3 of the funding will come back to the government as income tax anyways I would have thought?

The unions really need to be careful here; they are in no position to dictate terms and are playing with peoples livelihoods.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by SS_01

This is true, but not all of them are going to lose there jobs, as is evident with ford, the Design and Engineering teams are staying on. This will most likely be the case with Holden as well, although i am unsure about toyota.

More will lose their jobs
http://www.fapm.com.au/Autoindustry/...U/Default.aspx

The lose of an industry can have a snowball affect, if Holden closes it will most likely take down most of its tier one suppliers with it, those tier 1 suppliers will also bring down tier two and three suppliers and so on. When these suppliers go there will be issues with payments, bad debts etc. In my opinion know one knows how many jobs will be lost, but I suspect there will be reasonable numbers and those jobs lost will lead to other loses in other industries.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Spot on. My suggestion was a spur of the moment idea. There is always a 'bigger picture' that takes into consideration all aspects of this problem as well as all possible returns on the investment, both direct and indirect.

How much has Holden got in the past? On what basis / terms was it given?

What guarantee do we have from Holden in terms of future viability?

We are talking big money, OUR money after all...... I would hate to chip in my bit and see the whole thing fold in a few years. On the other hand, if it means that thousands remain in a job and it secures the long term future of car building in this country I'm all for it.

Agreed, I wish I had more facts but I don't, will have a look tonight. I remember someone at Ford once stating that for every dollar they get from the Government they return $6 on what basis I don't know. If its correct than the subsidies are a sound investment.

We also need to weight up the people side of things, Automotive manufacturing offers a wide range of skills (and these can be used in different industries and benefit the nation as a whole)

US and Germany heavily subsidies their auto industries (much more than what we do) so there are obviously a range of reasons as to why they do that. I would hate for Australia to lose its Auto industry and then find out those reasons.

[Wretched]

enough is enough there should be no more handing out $$ willy nilly no strings attached.
There should be conditions and Holden/Ford/Toyota/whoever should have to meet those conditions.
If Holden have good justification to needing the dollars (some great technological break through, a new model for export, etc) then so be it but if it is just to survive then no thank you, shut the doors if you need to. It is not sustainable to just hand out dollars.

Oh and yeah ok all those other governments subsidising car makers, yeah that's fine but have you seen what those car makers are doing? They are expanding their markets, they improving their products continually developing new products, new technologies (Toyota had the hybrid tech subsidised by the government), etc not just the same cars all the time. SO yes in that case I am all for it but here, nothing, it's all done at the last minute.

[ebv8]

i still think a join venture is the way to go, Folden Falcodore
pretty much a commodore and a falcon are the same on paper, size, weight, power, price, features (don't say they are not because they are)
so why fight saying fords are better than holdens visa versa
build a large sedan, ute, wagon, LWB, same floor pan, suspension, diff, grearbox, use their own engine, and own hanging panels
this way we keep 50% holden employees and 50% ford employees in a job as well as the local part manufacturers employed
we still get a big aussie car with a brand we love
oh hang on!!! COTF for the road

[Giant]

It will cost the Nation more then you can add up on a spreadsheet. Best to invest and and develop a top selling car why not make a SUV thats where the sales have been.

One tax break they could offer Holden etc is for them to have reduced income tax for their employees, thus keeping the employees on the same take home pay but saving the company heaps.

The gov should also encourage LPG cars with further concessions, as the dollar drops the Petrol price will once again become a issues when buying a car.