Phase 4 up for auction - Page 4

zoesgift · 26-09-2018, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgpsi

only the green one is real

they are all real but this can of worms has already been opened and closed many times! at the end of the day most of us will never be able to afford such history so we may as well just enjoy the ride and the fact that such auctions of GENUINE pieces of our motoring history continue to keep the best era of all in this country at least, well and truly alive

Nikked · 26-09-2018, 08:54 PM

If the XA raced at bathurst, i doubt many would question how real they were.

Yes, they left the production lines as GT's, but those 3 GT's had a destiny of being a Phase 4. Looking at the dates, it was convenient for them as the HO hadn't been put into production, so there were none to build a race car from.

I do wonder, if it had all gone to plan and the Phase 4 went ahead, would these cars received a different build plate?

Bossxr8 · 27-09-2018, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

If the XA raced at bathurst, i doubt many would question how real they were.

Yes, they left the production lines as GT's, but those 3 GT's had a destiny of being a Phase 4. Looking at the dates, it was convenient for them as the HO hadn't been put into production, so there were none to build a race car from.

I do wonder, if it had all gone to plan and the Phase 4 went ahead, would these cars received a different build plate?

I doubt it. Just look at Moffats XA coupe that went XB, XC or whatever. They just changed sheetmetal, grilles etc on the same car to update them. No way they touched the build plate.

BENT_8 · 27-09-2018, 02:04 PM

The Phase 4's for Bathurst 72 were to run under Group E Series Production rules which required 200 units to be built to satisfy the requirements for being a production vehicle, from 73 they changed to Group C so it didnt matter what the original configuration that rolled off the production line was.

The XA's would have retained their T code build plates as thats what they were built with.
The only point of interest really with regard to this is that had lets say Moff won the race, it would have put an end to the mystique that a genuine H code GTHO had won Bathurst as technically they were not production line GTHO's in the same vein as the 71 winner as being 1 of the 300 built and plated XY GTHO's.

HO 3 · 27-09-2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

I do wonder, if it had all gone to plan and the Phase 4 went ahead, would these cars received a different build plate?

Short answer is no. Historically there were a numbers of cars that were previously raced as GTHOs by FoMoCo that were plated as Falcon GTs with no HO stamped on the compliance plate. Some were also stamped T Codes. These cars are all today considered to be GTHOs by car collectors regardless of some of our forum members amusing expert opinions.

Cheers Mick

**FairmontGS** · 27-09-2018, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HO 3

Short answer is no. Historically there were a numbers of cars that were previously raced as GTHOs by FoMoCo that were plated as Falcon GTs with no HO stamped on the compliance plate. Some were also stamped T Codes. These cars are all today considered to be GTHOs by car collectors regardless of some of our forum members amusing expert opinions.

Cheers Mick

I guess that's where fact and fiction depart ways, yeah? As a collector, you'll believe what you need to believe and the rest of us... well...

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...sh/revisionism

BENT_8 · 27-09-2018, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HO 3

Short answer is no. Historically there were a numbers of cars that were previously raced as GTHOs by FoMoCo that were plated as Falcon GTs with no HO stamped on the compliance plate. Some were also stamped T Codes. These cars are all today considered to be GTHOs by car collectors regardless of some of our forum members amusing expert opinions.

Cheers Mick

Genuine question Mick.

Would the 3 XA GTHO works cars be considered part of the minimum build (200) for compliance in Group E racing at the time Mick?

Pepscobra · 27-09-2018, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HO 3

Short answer is no. Historically there were a numbers of cars that were previously raced as GTHOs by FoMoCo that were plated as Falcon GTs with no HO stamped on the compliance plate. Some were also stamped T Codes. These cars are all today considered to be GTHOs by car collectors regardless of some of our forum members amusing expert opinions.

Cheers Mick

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Car collectors...?
I feel the only ones pushing that barrow are the ones trying to profit from the XA HO mystique.

A real HO came down the production line as a HO, plain and simple.
Anything can be changed, modified, added to any vehicle after it has left the production line.

The three XA race cars in question were race prepared GT Falcons.
I'm not disputing their importance in Australian Motor Racing history and associated values, but they are not HO's.
How could they be HO's before HO production even started?

HO 3 · 27-09-2018, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Genuine question Mick.

Would the 3 XA GTHO works cars be considered part of the minimum build (200) for compliance in Group E racing at the time Mick?

Yes they would of been included in the GTHO count like the other cars that I mentioned previously...................I think the point old mate above is hung up about is the stamping on the compliance plate. The key point to remember is XA GTHO "Works" car, intended to be raced as a GTHO by its manufacturer, vs XA GTHO road car are different animals in a way. You either get your head around it or you don't and some clearly don't. Imagine If these HO4s had gone to battle at Bathurst in 1972 would Moffats reaction been " I'm not driving one of these there only fkn T codes?" Yeah, Nah don't think so.

Cheers Mick

HO 3 · 27-09-2018, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Car collectors...?
I feel the only ones pushing that barrow are the ones trying to profit from the XA HO mystique.

A real HO came down the production line as a HO, plain and simple.
Anything can be changed, modified, added to any vehicle after it has left the production line.

The three XA race cars in question were race prepared GT Falcons.
I'm not disputing their importance in Australian Motor Racing history and associated values, but they are not HO's.
How could they be HO's before HO production even started?

These cars were new, had not been retailed and were to receive there cut and tuck while still in possession of the manufacturer and raced by Ford as HO4s.

Cheers Mick

Nikked · 27-09-2018, 09:01 PM

Not "hung up" on anything, genuine question.

Pepscobra · 27-09-2018, 09:05 PM

Why are you so hung up on them having to be called HO's when they're clearly not?
There's no shame in what they are and they are valuable and important pieces of history.

HO 3 · 27-09-2018, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

Not "hung up" on anything, genuine question.

I was referring to others when answering your question.

Cheers Mick

BENT_8 · 27-09-2018, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HO 3

Yes they would of been included in the GTHO count like the other cars that I mentioned previously...................I think the point old mate above is hung up about is the stamping on the compliance plate. The key point to remember is XA GTHO "Works" car, intended to be raced as a GTHO by its manufacturer, vs XA GTHO road car are different animals in a way. You either get your head around it or you don't and some clearly don't. Imagine If these HO4s had gone to battle at Bathurst in 1972 would Moffats reaction been " I'm not driving one of these there only fkn T codes?" Yeah, Nah don't think so.

Cheers Mick

Thanks Mick.

arronm · 27-09-2018, 10:12 PM

My mum had XA GT , hers was yellow.

bundera · 30-09-2018, 12:33 PM

Video for those interested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXJ7yLG2KlI

HO 3 · 30-09-2018, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundera

Video for those interested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXJ7yLG2KlI

That HO3 has had quite a bit of paint work for an unrestored car?

Cheers Mick

arronm · 30-09-2018, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundera

Video for those interested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXJ7yLG2KlI

Good VID, but look at the build quality.. Rubbish..

I still dont understand all the hype. Just old cars. And to do 200 miles in 20 years.

That car is just a painting. What a shame....

northey · 30-09-2018, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Well that was a nostalgic read after last reading this mag in 1987

In short this P4 would appear to be ridgy didge but the mag only covers up to 1987.

The 3 racing prototype versions were painted Brambles Red also referred to as Bushfire Red. The three were supplied by Ford to the following. John Goss, Bruce Hodgson and Keith Goodhall. The vins are:

JG33MC78429K - Given to Keith Goodhall

It was the most completed P4 at that time. It was supplied to Goodhall by Ford with rally suspension as he did rallying. On a trip to Darwin it also dropped two pushrods and repairs were half hearted.

David Bowden brought it from Keith Goodhall.

It appears he then sold it to Kim Rane who drag raced it but he overcooked it at 8000rpm and she threw a rod. The engine was rebuilt using another block so its total originality was now gone. It also lost its original eared sump presuambly as it was also damaged.

Bowden then repurchased it from Rane in 1980 but indicates it was in poor shape and the engine was not nice so it was rebuilt again.

Well, I'm pretty sure I know where that missing sump ended up. A mate and I were drag racing back then and we cut up the eared sump which came from Keith Goodall's Ph4 HO to modify our drag car sump (welding the ears onto it). So that sump never made it to the next owner unless there was a spare one we ended up with. We discussed the sacrilege even then, being Ford and HO fans of what we were about to do.............and then did it anyway. I'm not sure I ever recovered from it.

zoesgift · 30-09-2018, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HO 3

That HO3 has had quite a bit of paint work for an unrestored car?

Cheers Mick

ive not seen the car in the flesh to comment on the external paint but that motor has been out and painted imho. trim looks great id still have it over most others that have come onto the public market in the last 2 yrs and id have it over the prototype also

HO 3 · 30-09-2018, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoesgift

ive not seen the car in the flesh to comment on the external paint but that motor has been out and painted imho. trim looks great id still have it over most others that have come onto the public market in the last 2 yrs and id have it over the prototype also

Yes Michael I'm sure it's a lovely car, more a maintained class car than unrestored imo........

Cheers Mick

zoesgift · 30-09-2018, 10:44 PM

all those in favour? I I I I I lol

zoesgift · 30-09-2018, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HO 3

Yes Michael I'm sure it's a lovely car, more a maintained class car than unrestored imo...........................and it doesn't have a dodgy compliance plate which is always a bonus.

Cheers Mick

the compliance plate thing is a growing concern....at least AMC don't mention that its matching nos though

HO 3 · 01-10-2018, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoesgift

the compliance plate thing is a growing concern....at least AMC don't mention that its matching nos though

Yeah agreed, that is another interesting effort

..............

Cheers Mick

BJB · 02-10-2018, 03:17 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST00wkNXBWs

**73 4V XB** · 02-10-2018, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arronm

Good VID, but look at the build quality.. Rubbish..

I still dont understand all the hype. Just old cars. And to do 200 miles in 20 years.

That car is just a painting. What a shame....

And that’s exactly what I think about late model cars. Each to their own eh!

arronm · 03-10-2018, 12:57 AM

Doubt many late model cars get hung on the wall for 20 years.

zoesgift · 03-10-2018, 11:52 AM

if its your car you can do what you want I guess! if you are lucky enough these days to come across or own a time warp car, its in the best interests from a historical point of view at least, to maintain as much as possible and do as little as possible which takes away from the originality. this generally serves you well come selling time also, just by the fact its rarely seen in this condition. personally I don't understand the concept of buying a modern car because its got certain initials or name (eg GT or monaro) and then parking it but whatever rocks your boat really. imagine the uproar if someone paid a kings ransom for a car like this xa prototype ph4 with its low miles and then decided he/she wanted to restore it?!