Will the Holden brand survive?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Exactly. When Ford announced they were pulling up stumps in 2013 I said Holden will follow. People said I was talking faeces and Ford was only closing because they made poo cars which nobody wanted. I said one needed the other to justify building cars in Australia.

It really turned toxic when the government called Holden's bluff by removing
$500 million from local industry funding, that was the last straw, not Ford leaving.

Ford left because it was past due leaving, the FG was really the last miracle save,
without funding for the top hat, Ford would have just done BFIII and left by 2011

[EBSXR6]

One thing I won't miss, the jingoistic bulldust of Holden.

[bungarra]

Pilbara Motor Group (Holden and Suzuki) announced their closure at the end of the month.

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It really turned toxic when the government called Holden's bluff by removing
$500 million from local industry funding, that was the last straw, not Ford leaving.

Ford left because it was past due leaving, the FG was really the last miracle save, without funding for the top hat, Ford would have just done BFIII and left by 2011

I was told Ford wanted out in the mid 1990's and the same source said Holden was in a far worse position than Mitsubishi when they pulled the pin.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

I was told Ford wanted out in the mid 1990's and the same source said Holden was in a far worse position than Mitsubishi when they pulled the pin.

Holden was actually bankrupt in 1985, and only GM pumping in a heap of cash saved them. Falcon had completely obliterated the smaller Commodore at that stage.

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

Just read on The Age website after Buick canned The Regal, last week Holden released a statement declaring the future of Commodore was safe.

Originally Posted by Cashie

They did. Obviously was standard corporate spin.

Isn't that the way it usually goes? If they first feel the need to come in an deny, deny, deny, then you know they are screwed. Within a week must be some kind of record though.

[Express]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It really turned toxic when the government called Holden's bluff by removing
$500 million from local industry funding, that was the last straw, not Ford leaving.

I would have thought it was more of a case of GM calling the Government's bluff on funding as GM had long wanted out of Aussie manufacturing and only needed a reason so as not to look like the total bad guy.

The funding debacle offered the perfect excuse.




.

[janddbone]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It really turned toxic when the government called Holden's bluff by removing
$500 million from local industry funding, that was the last straw, not Ford leaving.
Ford left because it was past due leaving, the FG was really the last miracle save,
without funding for the top hat, Ford would have just done BFIII and left by 2011

Even with that, G Polites Territory made the difference. If that was not there it would have been bye bye in 2010 at the latest

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Express

I would have thought it was more of a case of GM calling the Government's bluff on funding as GM had long wanted out of Aussie manufacturing and only needed a reason so as not to look like the total bad guy.

The funding debacle offered the perfect excuse.
.

Remember that before Ford announced its closure, Holden had announced
a grandiose local manufacturing plan that went beyond 2020.......
So this horse crap about Holden always wanting to leave was just not true,
they like Ford found ways to extend their time here until they couldn't anymore..

Barely twelve months after Ford called it quits, all of that had changed as the
attitude of governments supporting local manufacture turned toxic on the back
of incessant Murdoch press badgering about governments supporting car companies.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Remember that before Ford announced its closure, Holden had announced
a grandiose local manufacturing plan that went beyond 2020.......

But they also accepted a huge government subsidy from the Rudd government in 2013 in return for staying until 2020, and came back with cap in hand barely 18 months later.

Take their promises with a grain of salt.

What I find amusing is that Holden have committed to supporting Supercars til the end of 2021, yet the writing on the wall says Holden will be lucky if it makes it to the end of 2020. I hope Supercars have a backup plan....

[cheap]

Hopefully their garbage adds will disappear from YouTube too.’

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by b0son

But they also accepted a huge government subsidy from the Rudd government in 2013 in return for staying until 2020, and came back with cap in hand barely 18 months later.

Take their promises with a grain of salt.

What I find amusing is that Holden have committed to supporting Supercars til the end of 2021, yet the writing on the wall says Holden will be lucky if it makes it to the end of 2020. I hope Supercars have a backup plan....

I think we can agree that Holden’s forward commitments relied heavily on government funding and when that was withdrawn, Holden was sunk.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by cheap

Hopefully their garbage adds will disappear from YouTube too.’

And all the paid "advertorials" on every Car related Website....

[MrZ]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It used to sell over 400 a month easily. It's just completely died off in the past 1-2 years with it getting old, and buyers moving away from sedans.

The ZB is going through this now. Down to just 309 buyers last month.

Mondeo's best ever sales year was 6600 or 550 a month on average.

[Whistlr]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

It won't just be the Holden nameplate, but GM will pull out of Australia/NZ completely. If they couldn't make the numbers work for the whole of Europe, why would a heavily cost conscious GM continue to support and develop RHD vehicles for the tiny Australian market.

When Holden was number 2 or 3 in the market, perhaps GM would have seen a viable case for Holden, but they battling to stay in the top 10, I can't see there being new models arrive beyond the current life cycles of what they are selling now. The Commodore and Astra being an expensive buy in's from PSA, these were obvious candidates to drop first.

Whilst it's sad for dealership employment, I have no sympathy for the situation Holden and GM have found themselves in. You reap what you sow and GM's arrogance, poor products and stupid product planning over many decades has lead to where they are now.

There's a Cadillac Australia website under construction.







People questioned the logic of keeping the Holden brand alive when they announced they'd cease production. Some argued that yes they should because the brand name has equity, and it means a great deal to Korea Australia.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Whistlr

There's a Cadillac Australia website under construction.

The CT5 was here testing earlier in the year. but I doubt it would happen, certainly not under Holden

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...ommodore-75620

"The likely biggest hurdle to overcome is justification of low-volume, right-hand-drive production, while the shrinking sedan segment is also another factor."

the Cadillac is also top end, so wont be cheap here - so even lower volume

[Express]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Remember that before Ford announced its closure, Holden had announced
a grandiose local manufacturing plan that went beyond 2020.......
So this horse crap about Holden always wanting to leave was just not true,
they like Ford found ways to extend their time here until they couldn't anymore..

Barely twelve months after Ford called it quits, all of that had changed as the
attitude of governments supporting local manufacture turned toxic on the back
of incessant Murdoch press badgering about governments supporting car companies.

Lots of announcements never bear fruit.

Announcing and doing are two totally different things in the manufacturing game.

Just a deflection for more funding.

Australia's small population makes it difficult to be profitable in any form of manufacturing when faced with a myriad of competition.

Recent revolving door personnel at the pointy end shows GM weren't serious about keeping up the charade otherwise they would have fixed that problem for stability sake.




.

[Whistlr]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

The CT5 was here testing earlier in the year. but I doubt it would happen, certainly not under Holden

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...ommodore-75620

"The likely biggest hurdle to overcome is justification of low-volume, right-hand-drive production, while the shrinking sedan segment is also another factor."

the Cadillac is also top end, so wont be cheap here - so even lower volume

Yeah aware of that but I'm just pointing out that GM (not Holden) will still offer something here.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Whistlr

Yeah aware of that but I'm just pointing out that GM (not Holden) will still offer something here.

Sorry makes no sense for GM to pull out of Holden commitments with existing dealerships and customer base and then introduce their premium line of vehicles where they didn't see fit to do so before.

But maybe the HSV RHD conversions ie RAM & Camaro has legs

[janddbone]

More and more manufacturers withdrawing sedans will only bolster Hyundai/Kia at the lower end of the market. It will continue to make for happy dealers too. The easily overlooked part of the car selling/buying process.

[lra]

A couple of points that have not been mentioned here ( as far as I know.)

Holden was recognised by the old GM to be the home of RWD excellence, and the jewel in the GM crown. ( Bob Lutz ?)
If the new GM, not Holden, were genuine about RWD and RHD, Holden would be exporting Commodores, Monaros, Toranas and an unnamed SUV and dual cab ute to the world.

The new GM is not interested in building vehicles, it is interested in profit, share price and subsidies. Australia does not qualify on any of those.

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by lra

A couple of points that have not been mentioned here ( as far as I know.)


The new GM is not interested in building vehicles, it is interested in profit, share price and subsidies. Australia does not qualify on any of those.

That has to be the aim of any company. No company builds vehicles, or any other product, just because there are a few enthusiasts. Profit is the aim.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Express

Lots of announcements never bear fruit.

Announcing and doing are two totally different things in the manufacturing game.

Just a deflection for more funding.

Australia's small population makes it difficult to be profitable in any form of manufacturing when faced with a myriad of competition.

Recent revolving door personnel at the pointy end shows GM weren't serious about keeping up the charade otherwise they would have fixed that problem for stability sake.
.

All I'm saying is that the notion that Holden was planning to leave since the 1990s is rubbish, All the indications were that up until the announcement by Ford, Holden had every intention of staying put but what really put the skids under them was withdrawal of government funding. Once that funding was ended, their plans were shot.

[hackney]

Originally Posted by lra

A couple of points that have not been mentioned here ( as far as I know.)

Holden was recognised by the old GM to be the home of RWD excellence, and the jewel in the GM crown. ( Bob Lutz ?)
If the new GM, not Holden, were genuine about RWD and RHD, Holden would be exporting Commodores, Monaros, Toranas and an unnamed SUV and dual cab ute to the world.

The new GM is not interested in building vehicles, it is interested in profit, share price and subsidies. Australia does not qualify on any of those.

Correct,it was regarded as a home of RWD excellence.Read that quite a few years ago.

[lra]

Originally Posted by lra

The new GM is not interested in building vehicles, it is interested in profit, based on share price and subsidies. Australia does not qualify on any of those.

I have slightly amended my previous post. I meant that their profiteering, by any means, is more important than their business of manufacturing vehicles.
Boeing is an example of profits before engineering and passenger safety.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6

That has to be the aim of any company. No company builds vehicles, or any other product, just because there are a few enthusiasts. Profit is the aim.

I think it was a valuable niche that could have been nurtured and exploited but most certainly, it needed to broaden those valuable high dollar sales.

IMO, the stationwagon and Caprice were critical miss-steps in product envelope, had Holden persisted with a Zeta "Adventura" and a zeta SUV like Territory, then things might have been very different.

Life is not all about competing with Corolla or Camry, it's about making profits on vehicles that people will pay tons of cash to get hold of, the market shifted away from cars but Holden wasn't paying attention. Ford tried with Territory but let it wither for too many years without a diesel.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

I was told Ford wanted out in the mid 1990's

Correct. The industry was sweating big time and I remember the elation at the Tier 1 supplier where I worked when the AU programme was announced. Prior to the announcement it was no certainty that there was going to be another Falcon as 'One Ford' strategy had been released and Falcon was not part of it.

[bungarra]

Holden and Ford wanted out i the 70's but neither were wanting to be the first of them to go. They both were going to go in the 90's but Polites saved Falcon and pushed ahead, VT was meant to be the last Commodore as GM thought Ford was leaving manufacturing.
Two of the best books that goes into those parts
Ford Australia and the people who built them and Holden: Our Car. Everything comes out from the official documents.

[Whistlr]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Sorry makes no sense for GM to pull out of Holden commitments with existing dealerships and customer base and then introduce their premium line of vehicles where they didn't see fit to do so before.

But maybe the HSV RHD conversions ie RAM & Camaro has legs

https://cadillacaustralia.com
No need to be sorry. You need to maybe reread what was said. Someone was saying that GM would pull out completely, and I was saying that at the very least they have plans for Cadillac. I didn't say they'd get rid if Holden, he did.

Maybe they should, though. Maybe GM see what everyone else is seeing; the Holden brand holds no value. The Cadillac brand, however, has a whole lot more pull especially if the product is half decent.

What sort of commitments are they willing to keep losing money on? They're not selling, lmao. The dealers they choose to carry the Cadillac brand may be few but the rest will just shut shop or keep selling Holden utes and suvs, with Corvettes and camaros before the latter is eventually discontinued. Maybe in another corner of select dealerships they'll have Cadillacs.

Brand these select dealerships as "GM", with three different brands sold under the one roof. See? GM's solution is found on a Ford forum.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by Whistlr

There's a Cadillac Australia website under construction.

Originally Posted by Whistlr

https://cadillacaustralia.com
No need to be sorry. You need to maybe reread what was said. Someone was saying that GM would pull out completely, and I was saying that at the very least they have plans for Cadillac. I didn't say they'd get rid if Holden, he did.

Maybe they should, though. Maybe GM see what everyone else is seeing; the Holden brand holds no value. The Cadillac brand, however, has a whole lot more pull especially if the product is half decent.

What sort of commitments are they willing to keep losing money on? They're not selling, lmao. The dealers they choose to carry the Cadillac brand may be few but the rest will just shut shop or keep selling Holden utes and suvs, with Corvettes and camaros before the latter is eventually discontinued. Maybe in another corner of select dealerships they'll have Cadillacs.

Brand these select dealerships as "GM", with three different brands sold under the one roof. See? GM's solution is found on a Ford forum.

That website was registered by the importer of GMC trucks (https://american.com.au) in 2005 and updated in 2017, not any of the vehicle manufacturers. https://who.is/whois/cadillacaustralia.com
I'd say they are/were considering doing some low volume imports of a few fast Cadillac models.
GM are not linked in any way to that website.

[Sprintey]

So there you have it, Commodore gone which many could see. The brand may follow which is a pretty profound thing to consider. And not so profound, as brands come and go, new things rise, time passes. But this one had the Australia's Own mythology (that they later diluted with some memorable Korean product). I do wonder if the alloytec V6 and the size of the VE caught them out. I'm going to keep Dad's VY...

US Execs have a history of misreading overseas markets within an incredible success of the global culture of the USA. Some of what they have done is pure success and global coverage like a Coke, Nike, McDonalds, Jack Daniels, Apple, Netflix... and some makes you think wtf, like Chevy and ManU sponsorship. Or hoping Australian RWD buying Commodore fans would downsize and go to FWD. Applying new edge design to the AU, after Taurus already bombed.

Ford Australia will outlast them, tip of the hat to how it is being managed through some pretty tough times - end of Falcon, Ranger success, Mustang success, keeping the Engineering section, developing cars for India and China... Before that, the success of the Territory which was brilliant product design and timing.

Camry will be last man standing. It's the only mid/full size FWD that sells, and it's falling as the passenger car steamroller ploughs on. Everyone's tried - Avalon, Malibu, Mondeo, 6, Epica, Taurus, Maxima, ZB, all of them sell not much here. Perhaps because we're a big, mostly dry continent that's mostly snowless RWD will be a better choice.

The last bit, Holden is caught in the same storm force wind that's ripping through the whole auto industry. Plants being shut, less sales, inventory building, dealership evisceration. A paradigm shift on the horizon somewhere soon. Maybe. A mix of the old 'trade blocs' going up, and the predicted EV/Solar/battery decimation of auto and oil that Tony Seba predicts. The USA tends to oscillate between periods of global engagement and isolationism - witness GM abandon RHD markets...

Or maybe there's some seriously ugly stuff out there (saw 3 Koleoses today) and buyers like me are hanging back? Maybe we're tapped out? Maybe we don't care any more after Aussie cars are now gone? Maybe we're waiting for electric to stuff the petrol bills?

So grab your popcorn, do up an old Falcon like an XA while you watch the auto world burn. What will be reborn from the ashes?