2012-30

[JPFS1]

Sleeksim

Good posts.

I continue to read from many people about the throwback to when Ford AUS dropped the V8 and making parallel assumptions that the reasons would be the same. They're not. The oil crisis in the 70's was an artificial, politically created scenario, one that Ford AUS misinterpreted expecting that it was here for good.

Times have changed and there is now a REAL oil crisis. It should be extremely evident to everybody that most manufacturers have acknowledged this and are on the verge of releasing all sorts of alternative powered cars.

I didn't start this thread to suggest that Ford AUS WILL drop the V8 post Orion, but the trends are changing, demographics are changing and for a manufacturer to at least be able to keep their head above water, have to go with the flow.

[HSE2]

What was learnt from the last fiasco is that smaller engines that are required to work harder achieved less than satisfactory gains if driven in the same accustomed manner.

When the subject turns to combustion engines the same efficiencies are available to all configurations. Using 6 cylinder cars won’t be enough to make a real difference to the people that are marginal in the first place. The large car will be dead by then and four cylinder cars will be what people are after. Once that point is reached, hybrids will have taken over in that market segment.

My last 3 V8s are no dearer to run than the majority of 6 cylinder cars that I read about on this forum. When the car club toured the mainland in 07, the best consumption came from an AU2 Xr8.
My car and two F6s were next. All driven the same way, at the same time, in the same conditions. (convoy)

The LS2 is no less efficient then the F6 or Boss in real world conditions.

All of which is a mute topic. Its basic business. Ford wasn't wrong to drop the V8 last time. What was wrong is that Holden never. When you are in a competitive market you have to offer products that are a similar nature. While the competition will offer a V8 that will be as efficient as a smaller power plant the image will be detrimental to the brand when the subject comes to performance.
For the F6 to eat into the HSV product range just being slightly quicker will never be enough.
If one goes they all need to go. Same applies to RWD. It will only ever be a problem if one tries to leave the market by themselves.
On Monday I test drove the new Freelander 2.2 turbo diesel with 6 speed automatic. Impressive little car with a good engine. Very good consumption too. Down into the 7s and 8s. Unfortunately I took the car to the east coast of Tasmania over some Targa roads. Driven the same way as my XR8 it cost me $20 more than the XR8 and only used about 5 litres less. The majority of the expense is in the extra cost of diesel.
Car companies need to be careful. The real world advantages aren't there if oil companies are allowed to charge the premiums that they current do.


Two weeks ago the sat paper test drove the new Mazda Suv that has a similar V6 to what the Falcon will get. In bold headlines was a slanderous fuel consumption problem. It was test driven to parts a tourist to this state might like to frequent. Ford need to walk before they can run. Just to match the current excellent (real world) numbers achieved by the FG they are going to need every bit of technology.
HSV are proving this argument and sentiment is wrong every day of the week. Fuel prices are the same for all consumers and the cold hard truth is that economy improvements in configurations below are not currently sufficient.

It won’t matter if the reason is real or not. If the competition finds a way to continue to make V8s more efficient and they will, no compliance in the market place will ultimately lead to defection, just as it did in the 70s. If there are no V8 options that is a horse of a different colour.

The wrong question is being asked. If fuel consumption is really the issue then what improvement does a 6 cylinder car need to have over and above in order to make dropping the V8 option viable assuming performance and drivability of each are on par?

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by HSE2

What was learnt from the last fiasco is that smaller engines that are required to work harder achieved less than satisfactory gains if driven in the same accustomed manner.

When the subject turns to combustion engines the same efficiencies are available to all configurations. Using 6 cylinder cars won’t be enough to make a real difference to the people that are marginal in the first place. The large car will be dead by then and four cylinder cars will be what people are after. Once that point is reached, hybrids will have taken over in that market segment.

My last 3 V8s are no dearer to run than the majority of 6 cylinder cars that I read about on this forum. When the car club toured the mainland in 07, the best consumption came from an AU2 Xr8.
My car and two F6s were next. All driven the same way, at the same time, in the same conditions. (convoy)

The LS2 is no less efficient then the F6 or Boss in real world conditions.

All of which is a mute topic. Its basic business. Ford wasn't wrong to drop the V8 last time. What was wrong is that Holden never. When you are in a competitive market you have to offer products that are a similar nature. While the competition will offer a V8 that will be as efficient as a smaller power plant the image will be detrimental to the brand when the subject comes to performance.
For the F6 to eat into the HSV product range just being slightly quicker will never be enough.
If one goes they all need to go. Same applies to RWD. It will only ever be a problem if one tries to leave the market by themselves.
On Monday I test drove the new Freelander 2.2 turbo diesel with 6 speed automatic. Impressive little car with a good engine. Very good consumption too. Down into the 7s and 8s. Unfortunately I took the car to the east coast of Tasmania over some Targa roads. Driven the same way as my XR8 it cost me $20 more than the XR8 and only used about 5 litres less. The majority of the expense is in the extra cost of diesel.
Car companies need to be careful. The real world advantages aren't there if oil companies are allowed to charge the premiums that they current do.


Two weeks ago the sat paper test drove the new Mazda Suv that has a similar V6 to what the Falcon will get. In bold headlines was a slanderous fuel consumption problem. It was test driven to parts a tourist to this state might like to frequent. Ford need to walk before they can run. Just to match the current excellent (real world) numbers achieved by the FG they are going to need every bit of technology.
HSV are proving this argument and sentiment is wrong every day of the week. Fuel prices are the same for all consumers and the cold hard truth is that economy improvements in configurations below are not currently sufficient.

It won’t matter if the reason is real or not. If the competition finds a way to continue to make V8s more efficient and they will, no compliance in the market place will ultimately lead to defection, just as it did in the 70s. If there are no V8 options that is a horse of a different colour.

The wrong question is being asked. If fuel consumption is really the issue then what improvement does a 6 cylinder car need to have over and above in order to make dropping the V8 option viable assuming performance and drivability of each are on par?

Hi Ian

Great post and i agree with what you have said on most points.

We are at the mercy of what Ford US decide, at all levels, and the risk is far greater now that GRWD is getting closer. Commonality across all product lines won't leave any room for the engineers at Ford AUS to do what they usually do, provide a great product that involves local engineering ingenuity and I'm not too optimistic about Ford AUS role in GRWD just yet.

What ever the outcome, it will be determined ultimately by the consumer and what Ford US determine is the way of the future regardless of what their competition does, particularly if they think the competition is heading in the wrong direction.

[The G6ET Spot]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Oh another point I forgot to add is the changes in p-plate legislation banning provisional drivers from driving V8 Cars. This I believe will have far reaching effects as this means a whole generation of new drivers will never experience the feel of a V8 and thus will have no desire to buy one.

If that is the case,they should only be driving and buying 4 and 6 cylinder N/A cars. As they are not allowed to drive turbo cars either. So they would not experience them.

[SB076]

Dont know how much truth is in it but the current GoAuto News letter states that the 5.4 Boss will be replaced by a 5.0L V8 2010 - 2011 (JEM is this correct?)

(off topic it also discusses how close Ford came to building an FG GT HO - cost killed it, but apparently they were targeting around 400 Kw)

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by JEM

Hi Ian

Great post and i agree with what you have said on most points.

We are at the mercy of what Ford US decide, at all levels, and the risk is far greater now that GRWD is getting closer. Commonality across all product lines won't leave any room for the engineers at Ford AUS to do what they usually do, provide a great product that involves local engineering ingenuity and I'm not too optimistic about Ford AUS role in GRWD just yet.

What ever the outcome, it will be determined ultimately by the consumer and what Ford US determine is the way of the future regardless of what their competition does, particularly if they think the competition is heading in the wrong direction.

Funny enough GRWD and global engine supply will be the only thing that will keep V8s viable. If Ford Aust had to continue to hand assemble V8s and R and D them like they currently do then there won’t be a business case for them for much longer.

Problem Ford has and they are their own worst enemy stems back to the launch of the F6. Supposedly F6 buyers, and these are Ford words not mine, are not V8 consumers. The typical turbo buyer isn't a V8 consumer. Now while that might not be technically correct the sentiment is probably true if a competitive V8 isn't available.

People who buy F6s aren't doing so because they are saving on running costs. Ford tend (out of design ) not to ask the correct questions. I have no doubt this current situation where the F6 will appear to be close on paper to the GT will be a further test. In the real world nothing will have changed (F6 to remain dominate) but this time round the numbers will appear on paper for all to see. 20 kw gap down to 5kws isn't an accident.

If the F6 doesn't start to eat into the HSV V8 sales this time round they are going to have to come to some hard soul searching. It’s the swinging voter or the conquest sale in a predominately V8 market that will determine its future. Instead Ford will most likely look at sales of their own V8 market for a judgement on worth ignoring what would be obvious to the V8 consumer.

It is completely about the US market and what they decide and for us the lost of engineering content will most likely end Ford as a brand in this country.

I think Ford are in a lot of trouble. The V8 option and debate could very well be a mute topic.

[AC]

Meh, You primitives and your earth killing cars :P jk

Meet the Tesla car
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cE2Yd-pTS-s
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LhgctsVIrWc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CZ4gitSm1Xg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=w1C44JQU7Pc


Meet the Premacy http://youtube.com/watch?v=KRpv0jrmP_o
Top Gear on Hydro http://youtube.com/watch?v=NfLIR1d5x1I

This is the future come 2030.


Thats if the comet doesnt kill us first

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by RAPID XR8

If that is the case,they should only be driving and buying 4 and 6 cylinder N/A cars. As they are not allowed to drive turbo cars either. So they would not experience them.

Yeah but it's a small step between a Mistubishi Lancer and a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo or between a Mazda 3 and a Mazda 3 MPS.

It is a very big step going from a small FWD N/A 4 cylinder to a large RWD V8.

Can anybody imagine your typical ricer raised since their red P's on a diet of Japanese Fours, Neons and Fart Cannons graduating from their P's and rushing down to the nearest Ford dealer to get a large capacity traditional RWD V8.

My generation is the ricer generation. I am a rare breed that I am of the ricer geneartion and like V8's but I don't even own a V8 so what hope is there??

[flappist]

The reality of this situation is the Ford is a commercial entity that exists for ONE REASON ONLY. To make profit.

They do this by making motor vehicles and selling them.

The purchasing public tastes change with time and unless Ford move with it they will die.
All the screaming, yelling and gnashing of teeth by true believers did not prevent the demise of the panel van, fairlane or LTD, all of which were once major sellers.
The 3V 5.4 was not dropped because they could not make enough of them to fill the orders was it?

The ONLY way there will be a V8 in the future is if people are still buying them. Once the total sales of XR8s and GTs drops below a magic number they too will disappear. It is simple economics and keep a few hardcore fans happy while losing money is not a good business.
The same is true for all other models/options. Wagons, LPG, turbos, Territories or whatever will only continue to be made while enough are being sold.

If you want a V8 in 2012 then BUY ONE NOW.

The 7L commo will be very interesting to watch. The average bogan with a good job can afford the payments on a $60,000 GTS (or GT) over 7 years but raise that to $120,000 and the payments almost triple. This is getting beyond the reach of even the mining bogans.
The business market is also affected as if you do not drive enough then FBT gets you and it can become VERY expensive and if you do drive it then it becomes worthless (anyone want a 100,000km,3 year old F6?) .
Of course there are always the cashed up true believers but there are that many of them really.
HSV have done the numbers and believe them to be sound but after the Coupe4, GTS coupe and XUV debarcles I wonder just how nervous they really are.

All it needs is for the FG F6 to even come close to, let alone beat the commo on the 400m and the spell is broken.
I would be very surprised if even the most ardent bogan would pay $120k for a car that is nearly as quick as a $60k competitor. (Although many paid $60k for a GT that was nearly as quick as a $35k SV8).

[OzJavelin]

V8's are just a configuration, not specifically a displacement. If people stopped wanting to drive around their lounge-rooms with all electrics, sat-nat, DVD, blah, blah, blah .. cars could be smaller and lighter and under 4 litre V8s would be practical as a real performance alternative. Direct-injection, turbo'd, (etc, etc) all aluminum 3.5L-ish V8 in a body the size and weight of an original XK Falcon (maximum) would be nice.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Funny enough GRWD and global engine supply will be the only thing that will keep V8s viable. If Ford Aust had to continue to hand assemble V8s and R and D them like they currently do then there won’t be a business case for them for much longer.

Ian - yeah i completely understand the benefits of Global platforms in terms of viability of product and increased economic efficiencies due to global volumes. My point about the GRWD risk is what you've pointed out below.

Originally Posted by HES2

It is completely about the US market and what they decide and for us the lost of engineering content will most likely end Ford as a brand in this country.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

V8's are just a configuration, not specifically a displacement. If people stopped wanting to drive around their lounge-rooms with all electrics, sat-nat, DVD, blah, blah, blah .. cars could be smaller and lighter and under 4 litre V8s would be practical as a real performance alternative. Direct-injection, turbo'd, (etc, etc) all aluminum 3.5L-ish V8 in a body the size and weight of an original XK Falcon (maximum) would be nice.

What would you expect the characteristics of a 3.5L V8 be compared to a 4L 6?

High revving, peaky torque curve??

[rennie]

I would be sad to see it go. But it wouldn't overly affect me as much, I think I would be more prone to buy a TTV6 than the V8.

Nevertheless I would be sad to see it go.

[McobraR]

Originally Posted by JEM

What would you expect the characteristics of a 3.5L V8 be compared to a 4L 6?

High revving, peaky torque curve??

Dont the jags have a similar displacement sized V8? torque is nowhere as near as the I6

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by McobraR

Dont the jags have a similar displacement sized V8? torque is nowhere as near as the I6

Doesn't sound like a vacuum cleaner though
Seriously .. the issue is making engines smaller. In a world where 3.5L V8's would be the norm, 6-cyl engines would probably be sub-3L .. so no 4L I6's to compare against.

[JPFS1]

I'm thinking it might be a good time to revisit this thread...

[Paxton]

Well, with the news we have had this week, this thread certainly becomes more relevant.

Don't I look like an idiot...

[JPFS1]

I really like HSE2's signature!

But the question is, is there room in the FPV lineup??

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

I really like HSE2's signature!

But the question is, is there room in the FPV lineup??

We shall see. I'd say not, but time will tell.

I'm going to have to change my signature, aren't I?

Edit: well, it is the truth, isn't it?

[JPFS1]

i'm not 100% convinced..... yet!

will be looking into it.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

i'm not 100% convinced..... yet!

will be looking into it.

Please do.

Something drastic must have changed internally.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Please do.

Something drastic must have changed internally.

Must have had a good look at how many V8's Holden continue to sell. They know there is still a market for V8's, they just need to tap it better, the Coyote should help here.

FPV have also done well outselling HSV in swb sedans a few times.

I'd assume they would have thought that when petrol prices went up no one would buy V8's anymore, but this did not turn out to be the case.

[Mr X]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

i'm not 100% convinced..... yet!

will be looking into it.

Who-exactly are you?.......and what is your role outside this forum ?
LS1 forum I believe has a specific Holden corporate section.

You've certainly initiated some interesting topics.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Mr X

Who-exactly are you?.......and what is your role outside this forum ?
LS1 forum I believe has a specific Holden corporate section.

You've certainly initiated some interesting topics.

just your average citizen.

and you've done well digging up this old thread ;)

[Eaturbo]

V8's are not heavy on fuel, engine capacity is. Why not do a Ecoboost 3.5L V8 with Twin turbos. This way you get V8 sound with V8 power and you get the fuel economy of a 3.5L when cruising. People drive V8's with the engine capacity of 4 Fiestas and wonder why they use heaps of fuel. All Aluminium 3.5L V8 with twin screw super charger would also work well to mask lack of torque down low also

[CADSKY]

Originally Posted by wodahs

let me put it this way
as long as i can get an 8 and fuel it i will
thats like asking me if i cant buy a ford what will i do

100% agree. the only reason i dont have a V8 now is because i couldnt afford what i want. i will have the V8 i want one day and i will have it befor i buy a turbo.