Oil change - Page 3

Highway cruser · 09-02-2018, 10:48 AM

So from what I can gather we could use c2, c3 or c4. C2 being a low saps oil that doesn't give quite as much protection as the c3, but the c3 is a mid saps oil. Where as the c4 seems to be a low saps but gives the same protection as the c3.
Do I have that right?

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NZ XR6 · 09-02-2018, 12:53 PM

Not quite, C2 and C3 are mid-SAPS, C1 and C4 low-SAPS. C1 and C2 are low HTHS, C3 and C4 mid HTHS.

The Ford spec oil is low HTHS for improved fuel economy, so C1 and C2 should be OK based.

I expect any of the oils would be OK in a Mondeo.

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stefcio007 · 10-02-2018, 05:51 PM

I'm using Penrite C4 and my DPF soot loading is doing just fine, no problems. I have real-time soot loading monitoring setup so that I can glance while driving and know when a regen is occuring.

I use Torque and have a custom PID to show the data as ForScan won't work with my car to show DPF values.

cobrin · 11-02-2018, 10:14 PM

with the type of driving the mondeo gets (too many short runs 3.5km) if something were to go on the DPF it'd be done by now surely, since 90K kms of ownership. Sure there have been long drives in there and perhaps that's my saviour (few hunderd K's at a time) but it's not showing any symptoms and I'm happy about that at least.

Nulon C3-12 Full Synthetic 5W-30 Diesel Formula Long Life Engine Oil is the only engine oil it's had since buying the car in 2014 with 120K on it, now at 210K. Unfortunately I have no data to back anything up so it's all anecdotal, would be nice.

I'll keep going with Nulon me thinks.

rondeo · 13-02-2018, 11:19 AM

I've been reading about engine oil on the web, just for interest.

ZDDP, which is the most used anti wear additive is given a nice short rundown here:

https://www.experimentalaircraft.inf...rication-6.php

Castrol Edge is promoting titanium in their oil.

Both Penrite and Nulon oils use ZDDP, in the Mondeo recommended oils, according to their MSDS.
Penrite have this idea of 'full zinc' I suppose it's some sort of marketing mystique.
It would be nice if the oil blenders listed the ingredients like they do on vegemite jars.
MSDS are incomplete, they can avoid listing ingredients by claiming the are non hazardous.
ZDDP is known to be hazardous to aquatic life, so is required to be listed I suppose.

I don't lose much sleep on the oil issue, it's just interesting I reckon.

cobrin · 13-02-2018, 12:31 PM

If I ever did a DPF delete, I'd be right onto the highest Zinc oil I could find. As it is I'm digging the science behind Moly DTc.

rondeo · 13-02-2018, 02:37 PM

Hopefully not along these lines:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/conservat...190500408.html

ivorya · 13-02-2018, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobrin

If I ever did a DPF delete, I'd be right onto the highest Zinc oil I could find. As it is I'm digging the science behind Moly DTc.

Was just thinking today whether there was any info regarding a comparison between Zn and Moly.
I know Zn would be cheaper than Moly but i wonder what other differences there are.

rondeo · 13-02-2018, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivorya

Was just thinking today whether there was any info regarding a comparison between Zn and Moly.
I know Zn would be cheaper than Moly but i wonder what other differences there are.

Zn is an anti wear additive and detergent, whereas Moly is a friction modifier.
They are used together in some oils.
They do different things. Dr Google will explain.

This paper suggests they may not be compatible, having the effect of increasing engine deposits:

From:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...642-33841-0_35

'Generally, molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC) is added into engine oil as an effective friction modifier to improve fuel economy. Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZnDDP) has also been used as a multifunction additive in engine oils for more than 50 years. However, the results of this study showed that the coexistence of MoDTC and ZnDDP in engine oil could cause deposits accretion of the oil in the TEOST 33C.'

Could and might?

And so on.

Highway cruser · 13-02-2018, 04:21 PM

Nice to see everything is black and white then.

rondeo · 13-02-2018, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highway cruser

Nice to see everything is black and white then.

You get black and white answers by asking experts,
I like to ask myself and see what the experts say.

If you believe the Nulon blurb for C3 Long Life Diesel, you're
covered. I've asked myself and decided I'll go with what they say,
without actually believing it.

In my case this is probably the last car I'll own, given my age, so there's maybe a different perspective.

My first experience with Ford was a passenger in the Ford Prefect,

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Ford_Prefect

which did fantastic kangaroo hops, if you know what they are.

The term kangaroo hopping used to mean getting off to a bouncy start due to
some mechanical resonance. And I mean bouncy.

NZ XR6 · 15-02-2018, 06:43 AM

Modern oil standards set limits on ZDDP because too much isn't good for cats. (Not the furry ones

) I wouldn't worry about it.

Penrite make decent oils but some of their marketing BS annoys me. The zinc level they give on the labels is total zinc equivalent and includes other anti-wear additives that don't contain zinc.

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ivorya · 15-02-2018, 02:30 PM

So with the SAPS etc etc,

we could also put this in as well https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...uro-engine-oil

It's rated as C3. Has low SAPS.
I guess it just comes down to price.

NZ XR6 · 15-02-2018, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivorya

So with the SAPS etc etc,

we could also put this in as well https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...uro-engine-oil

It's rated as C3. Has low SAPS.
I guess it just comes down to price.

Very difficult to find in NZ for some reason. PAO is what used to be in Mobil 1, so that's a definite plus.

C3 oils are mid-SAPS, so more mareting BS.

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rondeo · 16-02-2018, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

C3 oils are mid-SAPS, so more mareting BS.

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In case anyone missed the detail, it's worth repeating:
Nulon C3 Long Life diesel is also marketed as 'low saps technology', as appears on the container.
just ignore the fact ACEA C3 is mid saps specification,
and the up to 5% ZDDP suggested by the MSDS:

http://jr.chemwatch.net/CWWS/Materia...wn&onlyfirst=1

NZ XR6 · 16-02-2018, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

In case anyone missed the detail, it's worth repeating:
Nulon C3 Long Life diesel is also marketed as 'low saps technology', as appears on the container.
just ignore the fact ACEA C3 is mid saps specification,
and the up to 5% ZDDP suggested by the MSDS:

http://jr.chemwatch.net/CWWS/Materia...wn&onlyfirst=1

What it does tell us is it's mostly Group 3 base oil. PAO is not deemed hazardous, so it's not on the MSDS.

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rondeo · 17-02-2018, 08:58 AM

Titan GT! pro flex MSDS:

https://www.lupinsys.com/search/fuch/

rondeo · 15-02-2018, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivorya

So with the SAPS etc etc,

we could also put this in as well https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...uro-engine-oil

It's rated as C3. Has low SAPS.
I guess it just comes down to price.

"Full synthetic" is a marketing term and is not a measurable quality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthe...#Group_IV:_PAO

This one is cheap:

https://redpoint.com.au/titan-gt1-pr...ngine-oil.html

Nulon say group iii oils are 'widely considered to be synthetic':

https://www.nulon.com.au/support/test

Google says group iii are....

NZ XR6 · 27-02-2018, 03:36 AM

Back on the original topic and some further feedback on the Penrite C3 oil.

The fuel consumption seems unaffected by the change from Fuchs Titan Pro Flex, but there was another regen at the weekend. Of course, it started just as I drove into a car park, so I went back on the road and it finished in a few minutes.

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stefcio007 · 27-02-2018, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

Of course, it started just as I drove into a car park, so I went back on the road and it finished in a few minutes.

The regen will continue even if the car isn't going anywhere and still running. I was in the exact same situation as you, regen still continued until it finished. The car still kept temps above 600*C in the DPF so you can comfortably sit there just keep the engine running.

bundybear75 · 27-02-2018, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefcio007

The regen will continue even if the car isn't going anywhere and still running. I was in the exact same situation as you, regen still continued until it finished. The car still kept temps above 600*C in the DPF so you can comfortably sit there just keep the engine running.

Just be aware where you are parked - this could start a fire if there is anything combustable near the DPF

stefcio007 · 27-02-2018, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundybear75

Just be aware where you are parked - this could start a fire if there is anything combustable near the DPF

Parked over gravel, no worries.

bundybear75 · 09-11-2018, 07:04 PM

Anyone tried Gulf Western?

http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/product/syn-x-7000/

This is their recommended oil for the TDCi and can be had this weekend (ordered online) from Supercheap for $82.50 for 20L !!!

It says it is Ford WSS-M2C-913D spec

My last service I used the last of my Nulon stash so I'm up for oil and this could be a very economical way of getting some.....

I'm thinking of trying it for the next few services to see

They also have a DCT fluid but its not on the recommended list (list out of date maybe?) at $225 for 20L

http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/product/syn-ts-dct/

Its Ford/Nissan M2C936A rated

cobrin · 10-11-2018, 01:14 AM

Your timing is impecable Bundy, last week I had investigated that oil too, unfortunately it's ACEA A5/B5 and not C1/2/3/4 (Catalyst) and thus isn't an option in my books.

bundybear75 · 12-11-2018, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobrin

Your timing is impecable Bundy, last week I had investigated that oil too, unfortunately it's ACEA A5/B5 and not C1/2/3/4 (Catalyst) and thus isn't an option in my books.

I went with the Nulon again, taking advantage of the 30% off sale.

I don't understand the impact of the ACEA ratings on the oil I use, I'm just deferring to the forum experts here. I change the oil every 7500 km or every 6 weeks or so, so ageing isn't really a problem lol.... My biggest concern is that it is OK for the DPF to avoid problems in the future.

On another note, I have now done 100,000 km in just over 2 1/2 years. Still happy even with the few issues I have had

rondeo · 12-11-2018, 08:34 AM

http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/NulonAus/

Enter Citroen C5 2.0l HDi, Same engine as Duratorq TDCi.
I'm definitely not an expert so I'm wondering now who is.

I would always suggest using the manufacturers recommended oil.

Mine seems to be thriving on the Nulon for now, 200000km +, but time will tell.

DPF closed loop goes down to 17% after regen.

cobrin · 12-11-2018, 10:20 AM

Quote:

I don't understand the impact of the ACEA ratings on the oil I use

If you don't use ACEA C1/2/3/4 you'll eventually collect all the combustion byproducts in the dpf and block it. C spec oils are designed to be burned off so you can regenerate and remove the soot in the dpf all that's left is ash which will eventually become the problem and the dpf need replacing.

Nulon and Penrite change labels all the time, I've kept an eye on it over the last 4yrs so it's disappointing to see. In any case stick to Fords Specifications and that is ACEA C grade.

rondeo · 12-11-2018, 10:59 AM

Nulon's lube guide specifies this for the 2010 - 2012 diesel:

https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...engine-oil.pdf

The CAUTION in that pdf is 'not suitable for dpfs'.

Given the MC diesels have dpfs, what is one to think?

One theory is Ford traded DPF life for fuel efficiency, there could be better reasons, who knows?

The spec is given as ACEA A5/B5-10.

bundybear75 · 12-11-2018, 11:21 AM

I've been using this for the last 100K km and haven't had any issues yet bar a blocked vaporiser that I dont think was oil related

https://www.nulon.com.au/products/di...sel-engine-oil

I was hoping to save a few dollars using the Gulf Western oil but I will stick with a known oil for now

It is showing as ACEA C3-12 rated... and suitable for DPF's

ivorya · 21-11-2018, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobrin

If you don't use ACEA C1/2/3/4 you'll eventually collect all the combustion byproducts in the dpf and block it. C spec oils are designed to be burned off so you can regenerate and remove the soot in the dpf all that's left is ash which will eventually become the problem and the dpf need replacing.

So I asked the question about this comment, this is the response;

Hi Aaron,
What you have quoted here is not incorrect but it does state the full story. It assumes that all DPF’s are the same, which is not always the case. As I understand it, there is a class of DPF called a high volume or high through put DPF for which an A5/B5 oil is suitable.

We have to rely on the vehicle manufacturers to determine what is appropriate for the vehicles they have built and follow the requirements that they have set. They are no doubt familiar with all the industry specifications and would have considered these when setting the oil requirements for their vehicles.

Ok, so does anyone have any information regarding which PDF's ford are using in their Diesel vehicles?

Also, the engine oil ? has me digging about. On this site https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html It shows the ford spec -913-D to have a Min T(Total Base Number) >10.
Now, Nulon site suggests using the FE formula https://www.nulon.com.au/products/fu...ion-engine-oil BUT it's Min T is 7.9.
Now, if i was using this oil, something went wrong with the engine, they tested the oil, i'm in the poop house.
Interestingly, Penrite suggests this https://www.penriteoil.com.au/applic...thetic-5w-30#/ which has a MIN T of 10.1.

So, how important is this value?