Could the Falcon be "shrunk"

[In Focus]

Maybe Ford could get (at least) the Ecoboost Falcon re-classed as a medium-sized car, so it's competing against the Camry. Is there anything other than engine capacity that makes the Camry "medium" and the Aurion "large"?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by AC

As lifted from Wikipedia.

FG Falcon

Length 4,955*mm (195.1*in)
Width 1,868*mm (73.5*in)
Height 1,453*mm (57.2*in)

Current Camry

Length 4,805*mm (189.2*in) & 4,820*mm (189.8*in)
Width 1,820*mm (71.7*in)
Height 1,470*mm (57.9*in)

Mondeo

Length 4,844*mm (190.7*in)
Width 1,886*mm (74.3*in)
Height 1,500*mm (59.1*in)


So is the FG now a mid sized car like the Camry, or is the Camry now a large car.
Mondeo...?

Forget wikipedia, they don't have the critical internal dimensions which are much more important today

2013 Fusion....Ford Link
Compared to 2012 Mondeo,
Ford has increased the shoulder room by an inch and the rear leg room by another inch, the Fusion now
has very similar internal dimensions to the Taurus, Falcon still has another two inches shoulder room.
The big difference is the boot space is smaller than Falcon and taurus but that's about it.

2013 Fusion

First row headroom 39.2
First row legroom, maximum 44.3......Falcon is around 2" less
First row shoulder room 57.8....Falcon is around 2" wider
First row hip room 55.0....Falcon is Falcon is around 2" wider
Second row headroom 37.8
Second row legroom 38.3......Falcon is around 1" more
Second row shoulder room 56.9
Second row hip room 54.4

I know that Fusion is still smaller but when you're in a car with similar room to Falcon
and the driver/passenger each have around 25mm less shoulder room, that's not much.

For those of you who have grown up with metrics, an inch is 25 mm, so were talking very little on either side of the car..

[ebxr8240]

Two box construction is cheaper to build than three box...
The V6 goes into so many vehicles front or rear wheel drive..
How does Subaru make AWD at there prices ??

[Jacko*]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That would be a good plan for stabilising Broadmeadows and supplies of Mondeo.

Mondeo is already being built in China and Russia, Hermosillo is about to change and Flat Rock will join it next year.

I could see Russia supplying Europe and Broadmeadows supplying Aus, NZ, S/E Asia, India and Africa.

Mondeos (plus S-max and Galaxy?) built in Russia could be transported to Europe for sale.


The new US Fusion is much closer to Falcon's internal dimensions, Fusion is also available with AWD and a hybrid version
and Lincoln variation is being advertised with 3.7 V6 and AWD..

This global platform is offering so much more in terms of size, variations, fuel economy, AWD and engine choices...

I was in the US two years ago my brother in law had a Fusion it definitely felt more like a camry than a falcon.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Jacko*

I was in the US two years ago my brother in law had a Fusion it definitely felt more like a camry than a falcon.

Probably so but the new Fusion has another 25 mm of shoulder room, the thing I notice
with camry is the added tumblehome on the side glass, the roof seems to be a lot narrower
than say Mondeo or the new Fusion and they seem to have seats further outboard than Mondeo.

PS,
I like playing devil's advocate sometimes to draw out some good comments to support Falcon...

Perhaps everything that can be done with Fusion/Mondeo is possible with falcon too, even the weight loss bit,
what if that were possible, a 154o Kg I-4 Falcon and a 1620 Kg V6/I-6 Falcon, would that achieve just as much?

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I see that and think why bother with the Falcon when the Mondeo is better equipped.

OH NO, WRONG WHEEL DRIVE!

Seriously unless you drive like a moron and do burnouts, no one gives a rats *** if the car drives with its front wheels or rear.

I look at my Falcon and think, there could be a lot more room if it had a flat floor because of no tail shaft and diff.

Thats hilarious. Oooh a flat floor, how much more awesome can you get?

Honestly, if you cant see the value in RWD beyond burnouts, you really have absolutely no clue, and a car enthusiast forum may not be the place for you if all you care about is frivolous gadgets and a flat floor in your whitegoods on wheels.

Having said that, I admit drive configuration isn't important in a mainstream passenger car. But given the choice, its RWD all the way for me - flat floor be damned!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I see that and think why bother with the Falcon when the Mondeo is better equipped.

its all a matter of opinion and what you value in your car. i looked at mondeo when looking at my FG and i bought my FG. if i had the choice over, i would make the same one. i don't care if mondeo has some ****y gadgets. falcon wins for me hands down. much better looking interior layout also. obviously that is also a personal opinion.

as for the graphs of exterior dimensions, sure, mondeo is similar to falcon, but have a look at a graph of interior room. i don't like sitting in the passengers lap when driving. (obviously an exaggeration!)

[flappist]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Thats hilarious. Oooh a flat floor, how much more awesome can you get?

Honestly, if you cant see the value in RWD beyond burnouts, you really have absolutely no clue, and a car enthusiast forum may not be the place for you if all you care about is frivolous gadgets and a flat floor in your whitegoods on wheels.

Having said that, I admit drive configuration isn't important in a mainstream passenger car. But given the choice, its RWD all the way for me - flat floor be damned!

Very obvious if you look.

Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Mustang, Corvette, FPV, HSV, Comaro, 370Z, FT86, ISF, LFA, Aston Martin, Jaguar all except for a few "bubble car" exceptions are REAR WHEEL DRIVE.

Camry, Corolla, Civic, Integra, Accord, Hyundai, Daewoo, Euro bubble hatches, need I go on...are FRONT WHEEL DRIVE.

If it were only Falcon in Australia then there may be a point but it is world wide across multitudes of races, cultures and societies.

If you have to ask why a driver prefers rear wheel drive then I suspect you will not understand let alone accept the answer.........

[2011G6E]

Been done before...downsizing from the XC to the XD...I recall people at the time saying it was "little" and a "small Falcon". Same with Holden and the VB Commodore, even though it looked physically smaller than the HZ KIngswood, it had more interior room through clever packaging, which the XD did as well.

No reason they couldn't do it again. Given that the staggeringly vast majority of buyers wouldn't care and most likely wouldn't know which end is doing the driving, there's no real reason to keep rear wheel drive either in all honesty.

[prydey]

i think all segments have taken on the segment that was above it 20 years ago. large cars aren't selling as they are now quite similar to the old LWB cars.

micro cars are the same size as the old small cars.

interior/exterior dimensions might only be fractionally different, but most of it is about perception. cars are more slab sided, higher noses and tails etc so even if the dimensions aren't a lot different, the perception has changed a lot.

an eb falcon used to be a large family car. when i had mine parked next to my FG, i reckon i could've just about fitted it inside, yet when you compare official dimensions, there is only an inch or 2 in it. the numbers on paper don't really tell an accurate story.

park a current corolla sedan alongside an eb falcon and you'd be surprised at how close a current 'small' car is to being the same size as a 20yr old 'large family car'!!

[GK]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

It's about perception and marketing, which has been mentioned here many times. It's seen as a big car, and an inline 6 is seen as thirsty. We all know thats rubbish, but we are enthusiasts, not the general public. The very same people who see the Falcon as 'thirsty' would be the ones flocking to a Mazda CX7 or 9, or Prado, or one of those butt ugly Mercedes SUV's, all of which get 13 or 14 L/100km, versus the Falcon's 10.

Perception is everything. The buying public are cretins and are easily led.

Post of the thread!

And the last line says it all. The only way to lead the public is to smother them with the facts wrapped up in great advertising.

But of course, Ford's advertising budget appears miniscule.

GK

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

its all a matter of opinion and what you value in your car. i looked at mondeo when looking at my FG and i bought my FG. if i had the choice over, i would make the same one. i don't care if mondeo has some ****y gadgets. falcon wins for me hands down. much better looking interior layout also. obviously that is also a personal opinion.

as for the graphs of exterior dimensions, sure, mondeo is similar to falcon, but have a look at a graph of interior room. i don't like sitting in the passengers lap when driving. (obviously an exaggeration!)

I can understand people's individual preference for a RWD car but should that opinion
overpower the desire of a bigger pool of buyers who possibly want a large car with different dynamics..

The whole point of a RWD Falcon is that it fills a need in the market which no other global product can,
can we honestly say with flagging sales that another Falcon will sell better than a global vehicle?

(Edit, I typed Ralcon - a Scooby Doo flash back..)

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by prydey

as for the graphs of exterior dimensions, sure, mondeo is similar to falcon, but have a look at a graph of interior room. i don't like sitting in the passengers lap when driving. (obviously an exaggeration!)

Which is an unfortunate irony isn't it. The Mondeo is bigger in every external dimension except length, yet despite its FWD layout, somehow manages to be smaller inside. Is that really the case?

So the benefit of FWD in this instance is what, 8.1lt/100km (Falcon) vs 8.0lt/100km (Mondeo), and the warm fuzzy feeling that you provided Ford Motor Company with a larger profit margin...

[AC]

Originally Posted by prydey

its all a matter of opinion and what you value in your car. i looked at mondeo when looking at my FG and i bought my FG. if i had the choice over, i would make the same one. i don't care if mondeo has some ****y gadgets. falcon wins for me hands down. much better looking interior layout also. obviously that is also a personal opinion.

This

Tis one thing I noticed about the Mondeo's, lots of gadgets.
Takes a lot away from the driving experience.

But I guess I'm lucky, I haven't been spoilt by all that.
Im just happy to have Power Steering, A/C and Power Windows.

But in reference to the OP's question, Falcon shouldnt need to shrink, because every other car around it seems to have grown to its size and they still call them medium sized cars.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Which is an unfortunate irony isn't it. The Mondeo is bigger in every external dimension except length, yet despite its FWD layout, somehow manages to be smaller inside. Is that really the case?

Mondeo is shorter and lighter than Falcon.

So the benefit of FWD in this instance is what, 8.1lt/100km (Falcon) vs 8.0lt/100km (Mondeo), and the warm fuzzy feeling that you provided Ford Motor Company with a larger profit margin...

Or, 6.8 l/100km with 1.6 EB, better with diesel...both already designed ready to go...
MKZ now has 3.7 v6 and AWD...oh, ther's now Hybrid Fusion too...
And Mondeo has a hatchback...and a Stationwagon...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I can understand people's individual preference for a RWD car but should that opinion
overpower the desire of a bigger pool of buyers who possibly want a large car with different dynamics..

The whole point of a RWD Falcon is that it fills a need in the market which no other global product can,
can we honestly say with flagging sales that another Falcon will sell better than a global vehicle?

(Edit, I typed Ralcon - a Scooby Doo flash back..)

not sure why you quoted me. i wasn't in any way referring to which wheels drive the car.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Which is an unfortunate irony isn't it. The Mondeo is bigger in every external dimension except length, yet despite its FWD layout, somehow manages to be smaller inside. Is that really the case?

So the benefit of FWD in this instance is what, 8.1lt/100km (Falcon) vs 8.0lt/100km (Mondeo), and the warm fuzzy feeling that you provided Ford Motor Company with a larger profit margin...

9.5l/100km (227 g/km) for the Mondeo I4
9.9l/100km (___ g/km) for the Falcon I6

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Mondeo is shorter and lighter than Falcon.

Which is why I said "except length" But less weight is a good point.

Originally Posted by jpd80

Or, 6.8 l/100km with 1.6 EB, better with diesel...both already designed ready to go...
MKZ now has 3.7 v6 and AWD...oh, ther's now Hybrid Fusion too...
And Mondeo has a hatchback...and a Stationwagon...

Thats all well and good, but I'm more interested in supercharged V8's and turbo I6's. Far more exciting. The mainstream non-enthusiast buyer couldn't care less about those things, and for them there is the Mondeo. Enjoy.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

9.5l/100km (227 g/km) for the Mondeo I4
9.9l/100km (___ g/km) for the Falcon I6

Sheesh that comparison makes the Falcon look even better!

I was comparing 2.0lt ecoboost models, figures from the Ford website.

[AC]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Sheesh that comparison makes the Falcon look even better!

I was comparing 2.0lt ecoboost models, figures from the Ford website.

I reckon, LOL

Our BF XR6 is getting 9.5L/100kms, we've had it as low as 9.1L with everyday driving.
I'm keen to see how it is on the Highway, the figures will only get better.

[Nic302ef]

the FG onwards could do with a trim on lengh, the bloody thing wont even fit in the garage with the roller door with out parking on an angle, and the boot could do with some space improving still, one double pram and thats about all that fits.

Funny still all this wont stop me from buying a new bigger falcon, but for others it mite.

Compare the VE to there smaller models, apprently the boot in Litres is larger then there VE, strange how market trends work though

[JimStone]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

9.5l/100km (227 g/km) for the Mondeo I4
9.9l/100km (___ g/km) for the Falcon I6

Thats the old pov pack 2.3 Duratec Mondeo figures.... Mondeo I4 Ecoboost 8.0l/100km (187 g/km)

I hit the market needing to replace my AU1.5 Fairmont Ghia earlier this year. After driving near on everything on the market from small car class to SUVs I bought a new Mondeo Zetec Ecoboost Hatch.

I really, really wanted to drop my hard earned on a new RWD platform FG, but I could not live with dislocating my left knee everytime I got in the car. The steering wheel is simply too low and the driving position is claustraphobic for my 120kg 195cm tall frame. It felt like Ford drafted in some of the Commodore design crew when laying out the ergonomics for the FG, whereas the Mondeo is reminisent of the AUs relatively wide open and airy cabin design. An added bonus with the Mondeo is the loadspace is HUGE - fold down the rear seats and theres enough stretch out in the back.

As I said, I wanted to buy the FG, but at the end of the day, my money went to the car with the better allround ergonomic package - I can but wonder how Ford Australia managed to make an 'on paper' larger car fell so much smaller inside.

RWD or FWD at the end of the day is not really an issue, each need their own specific driving style to get the best from the package. Drive a FWD car to its inherent strengths and pay due respect to its weaknesses and you'll find the experience equally rewarding to driving a RWD, just subtly different.

Now excuse me while I go and put on my flameproof suit, I have the distinct feeling it will be required.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

not sure why you quoted me. i wasn't in any way referring to which wheels drive the car.

I know that old mate and not implying you meant anything more,
there was a couple of dialogues going on and just exploring that direction.

Not sure which way Ford will hop with large car plans, probablly depends a lot on "other projects" to our North..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by JimStone

Thats the old pov pack 2.3 Duratec Mondeo figures.... Mondeo I4 Ecoboost 8.0l/100km (187 g/km)

The 2.3 is really showing its age with fuel economy, 2.5 in Camry is now 7.8 l/100 km.
Looks like Ford USA's 2.5 is getting similar to EB 2.0, so maybe next generation mondeo will get similar to Camry

[H.G]

define medium cars?? when I last went to get tyres for my Impreza they were classed as a large car..... even though they are hardly big in stature by any means..

[prydey]

Originally Posted by H.G

define medium cars?? when I last went to get tyres for my Impreza they were classed as a large car..... even though they are hardly big in stature by any means..

actually on that note, tyre manufacturers are still using the same stages they have for years. they often still advt 215/65r15's as large car tyres. obviously tyre places don't just deal with new cars. 18inch tyres are still considered performance tyres and priced accordingly even though they are becoming very mainstream.

[jpd80]

Regardless of what happens, I have a feeling that Ford will have need of mondeo and a large car in the future.
So I doubt that Falcon or any successor will be shrunk....

[turboxf]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

I can relate to that over the years too !!!Lol..

Didn't FORD OZ take a few FG'S before they were released over here to DERBORNE USA , with the thinking of the FG body on the new MUSTANG chassis??????

I thought i read from FORD usa that the 2015 mustang will be a 4 door & 2 door , so why not do that have the mustung underpinnings & the FALCON rear end, wow that would make for a fantastic mustang FALCON

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by FPV

Is there much of a point shrinking the Falcon down to Mondeo territory? To me, the Mondeo is the global medium size car, if you are going to shrink the Falcon to the same size, you may as well get rid of it, to me this is the type of overlap where One Ford would kick in.

That was my first thought when reading the title. it might be better to start calling the falcon a Town-Car or Limo.

As to weight. i often drive over work's weighbridge. the AU is 1600 and my BF Ute is 2000 kg.

[blk6t]

Maybe Holden and Ford should have gone off and developed a smaller RWD platform, similar to what Toyota and Subaru have done.

It could have been similar in size to the Torana concept, being smaller in size could have run off 4 cylinder engines and have smaller capacity V8's for the performance versions.

Brand loyalty aside, Holden and Ford enthusiasts both want RWD vehicles...

The Mondeo is FWD and in my opinion not that appealing, a RWD medium sized car would sell very well...