Something to consider before hooking up 3500 kg

[DoreSlamR]

Originally Posted by zilo

Dunno what you mean....
it's a 90mm towball and towbar as supplied by Hayman Reese.

You saying it's a problem? (I'm all ears)

A stock cruiser won't tow a bobcat, not legally. So you've obvioulsy upgraded it somewhat if you're using a 90mm towball

I had a 5 tonne Isuzu tipper with which I towed my bobcat on a 4.5 tonne plant trailer, the trailer weighed 800kg, which left me 3.7 tonne, with bucket, forks, full tank of fuel and I was pretty close to that..

I just wouldn't dream of towing a bobcat on much less than that..

[Brazen]

Pfft just one bobcat? :-)

[DoreSlamR]

Well that makes my load look rather pathetic lol

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by zilo

Just another jealous troll.

Pfftt................you obviously know me so well

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

Well that makes my load look rather pathetic lol

Don't feel too bad those pickups are absolute beats.

The Dodge Ram 6.7 diesel has 1,127 NM of torque and a 13.6 tonne tow rating. Just insane.

[BadMax]

Long term durability is also questionable, not only the fact the someone with zero experience in towing can haul around 3,500Kg!

I took these pics wen a T30 Xtrail came into my shop, the owner noticed when un-hitching a 6x4 the towbar moved. I climbed underneath to find both chassis rail extensions had torn its spot weld from the floor, main chassis rails and beaver panel.
The vehicle had not been overloaded but was used for regular towing of a 16 foot caravan, I assume around 1000kg? We assume the 'load levelers' contributed to the failure as it places further strain on the towbar to level the vehicle out. I have serious concerns over these alleged load increasing devices, I assure you that if something fails your factory warranty is out the door and you're probably left standing on your own probably insurance wise also...read the fine print.

This older gentleman was genuinely distressed about it, he repeatedly said "imagine if it let go with the caravan on the back at 110kmh". And he's right, the whole towbar would have dislodged and safety chains would have done nothing to stop the van!

[mechanic]

Re BadMax pictures. Nothing like a few spot welds to hold things together.
The scary part is that there's dozens of those types of rigs getting around our roads.

[BadMax]

Yeah, that's all that holds most cars together. I've never seen anything like it before.
Truly horrifying, plus all those people who tow their caravan to their favourite spot once a year and never check it over.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

A stock cruiser won't tow a bobcat, not legally. So you've obviously upgraded it somewhat if you're using a 90mm towball

..

Good to see someone in here can read before dribbling nonsense all over a keyboard.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Matty4

Pfftt................you obviously know me so well

You bought a Jeep, that tells me a lot.

[Matty4]

And you bought how many 380's?
Whats your point?

BTW, I usually like what you post and the things you've done but to start the insults because you decided to leave out some pertinent and relevent information............tells me a lot too.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Matty4

BTW, I usually like what you post and the things you've done but to start the insults because you decided to leave out some pertinent and relevent information............tells me a lot too.

I didn't leave anything out, post #25 says it all.

You insulted me in post #29 without reading the whole thread, pretty lame really if you can't read 4 posts up before posting.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by mechanic

Re BadMax pictures. Nothing like a few spot welds to hold things together.
The scary part is that there's dozens of those types of rigs getting around our roads.

well, to me, yet another reason to have yearly inspections before roadworthy is given for registration purposes.

also a good, well trusted, mechanic is a must, pretrip checks are high on my agenda, mine has just been performed (heading for the snow).

I've seen a few a frames bent up on vans, load distribution hitches were blamed but were found not to be at fault, the a frames on the van were simply not fit for service, as are the above drawbar connections.

assuming the van is around the 1000 kilo mark (as stated by badmax) then that would give a ball weight of roughly 100 kilo's, not necessary to have the load levellers up to full strength and therefore would not have been able to have caused the damage.

the connections on the vehicle were simply not to standard.

"edit"
just quickly did a little bit of research on the X trail and its capacity, "load distribution hitches are not recommended as they may damage the vehicle"!

[Matty4]

I can read, very well.
Fitting a 90mm towball to an aftermarket towbar doesn't automatically increase the maximum towing capacity of the vehicle it's fitted to.
Just like a GVM increase doesn't increase its towing capacity.

Likewise, $5000 brakes on a trailer doesn't increase the maximum towing capacity of the vehicle either.

Post up your new compliance plate and engineering certificate showing the upgraded towing capacity of the Toyota to 3700kg or greater and I'll publicly apologise to you for hurting your feelings.

[Franco Cozzo]

Customer of mine is upgrading from PX Ranger to RAM 2500, has a 30ft 5th wheeler van he tows, it comes under 300kg or so under the max allowance, not only that but it didn't pull it very well.

They may be rated to 3500kg, but at the end of the day how well is something with only 470NM going to pull something with the aerodynamics of an appartment complex?

In this case the RAM 2500 replacing the Ranger is 280KW/1100nm torque.

He owns an earth moving company, so some of the attachments they put in the back for their equipment weigh heaps and it can also be used for this.

Its a 2014 model I think, 28,000km on the clock he got it for $120,000.

There are people buying these vehicles, a few of my customers have F250s as well, the ones which were sold here locally and another has a 2008 model.

Mind you we're out regional so size wise they aren't really an issue.

People complain about their price, at the end of the day look at how many people here on AFF have cars which they've sunk in close to or into the 6 figure range including purchase price.

[GREGL]

This information should be handed out with your paperwork when purchasing a vehicle . Not the comparison part, just what you are LEGALLY allowed to carry/tow . At present I have a v6 bravo rated at 1800 kg, now not a lot has changed in chassis or power outputs between 2006 and now . The tare weight is about the same, the load that is ball park and mechanically I would envisage the clutch to be as strong so what gives ?
Admittedly a new fangled diesel has better low down torque but that's for going forward not controlling what is behind .
As far as licencing goes a refresher course in courtesy would be a big start . I imagine few people would know how to pull a swaying caravan straight under an emergency situation at 90 kmh either . I know one very competent driver who towing his bushtracker with a 100 series l/cruiser who rolled the lot when passed by a oncoming r/train and he has been driving (and towing) all variations of them for years .

[mechanic]

At post 36 BadMax photos.
Towbars we used to fit came with a length of flat bar approx. 100 x 6 mm about 400 mm long which had 2 pre drilled holes to match 2 holes in the towbar mounting which went under the chassis rail.
Fitting them involved removal of everything from the boot and drilling through the boot floor and using the plates provided as support for the 2 bolts to go through the chassis rail and the tow bar.
Boot mats never quite went down flat again as the heads of the 2 bolts on each side were noticeable through the rubber mat or carpet, never saw a towbar fall off though.
On a recent extended trip through Tasmania we saw dozens of X Trails towing vans and camper trailers, makes one wonder how often these problems are arising and what the end result will be. Caravan careering down the highway with a towbar attached and no vehicle ????

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by GREGL

This information should be handed out with your paperwork when purchasing a vehicle . Not the comparison part, just what you are LEGALLY allowed to carry/tow . At present I have a v6 bravo rated at 1800 kg, now not a lot has changed in chassis or power outputs between 2006 and now . The tare weight is about the same, the load that is ball park and mechanically I would envisage the clutch to be as strong so what gives ?
Admittedly a new fangled diesel has better low down torque but that's for going forward not controlling what is behind .
As far as licencing goes a refresher course in courtesy would be a big start . I imagine few people would know how to pull a swaying caravan straight under an emergency situation at 90 kmh either . I know one very competent driver who towing his bushtracker with a 100 series l/cruiser who rolled the lot when passed by a oncoming r/train and he has been driving (and towing) all variations of them for years .

Ranger is a new ,stronger platform - bigger , more torque and much heavier . All in all it is much more stable and capable towing platform than previous generation ute. Now whether 3500kg towing capacity is a bit optimistic remains to be seen. Manufacturers use tow rating as a marketing tool and it is important to be the market leader.
3.5t seems to be the new standard for utilities .

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Ranger is a new ,stronger platform - bigger , more torque and much heavier . All in all it is much more stable and capable towing platform than previous generation ute. Now whether 3500kg towing capacity is a bit optimistic remains to be seen. Manufacturers use tow rating as a marketing tool and it is important to be the market leader.
3.5t seems to be the new standard for utilities .

I would love to know how they get the tow figure to be honest.

There are many examples of totally different cars (weight / size / power / torque etc) having the exact same tow rating.

Or, cars that seem much up to the task, yet are not rated to tow at all.

I tow a ton behind my Mitsi and it feels like nothing is there. It's rated to tow 2. Yet there are vehicles that are not that much more powerful or heavy that go to 3.5t...

I would hate to have that behind me in a 'worst case scenario'...

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

I would love to know how they get the tow figure to be honest.

There are many examples of totally different cars (weight / size / power / torque etc) having the exact same tow rating.

Or, cars that seem much up to the task, yet are not rated to tow at all.

I tow a ton behind my Mitsi and it feels like nothing is there. It's rated to tow 2. Yet there are vehicles that are not that much more powerful or heavy that go to 3.5t...

I would hate to have that behind me in a 'worst case scenario'...

It is a numbers game - take Ranger for example 6000 kg GCM ,3500 kg tow rating which leaves 2500kg for the car and driver , passengers and all the gear on board. Consider how many people install bull bars , sliders ,canopies ,draws and carry stuff on roof racks , on board fridges etc. - empty Ranger is about 2200kg so that leaves 300kg for payload at max towing capacity.
so you can load the car to 2500 kg if you want to tow 3500kg but GVM is 3200kg at which you can tow 2800kg.
Realistically you want your tow vehicle to weigh more than the load - for regular 3.5t towing something like F250 would be much better choice .

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Matty4

I can read, very well.
Fitting a 90mm towball to an aftermarket towbar doesn't automatically increase the maximum towing capacity of the vehicle it's fitted to.
Just like a GVM increase doesn't increase its towing capacity.

Likewise, $5000 brakes on a trailer doesn't increase the maximum towing capacity of the vehicle either.

Post up your new compliance plate and engineering certificate showing the upgraded towing capacity of the Toyota to 3700kg or greater and I'll publicly apologise to you for hurting your feelings.

Your opinion/approval is of no value to me.

Another one for the ignore list....

[BadMax]

@mechanic with the complexity of construction and materials used in vehicles today, doing what used to be done would probably write the vehicle off.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

It is a numbers game - take Ranger for example 6000 kg GCM ,3500 kg tow rating which leaves 2500kg for the car and driver , passengers and all the gear on board. Consider how many people install bull bars , sliders ,canopies ,draws and carry stuff on roof racks , on board fridges etc. - empty Ranger is about 2200kg so that leaves 300kg for payload at max towing capacity.
so you can load the car to 2500 kg if you want to tow 3500kg but GVM is 3200kg at which you can tow 2800kg.
Realistically you want your tow vehicle to weigh more than the load - for regular 3.5t towing something like F250 would be much better choice .

I can get my head around the maths involved and that isn't an issue. It's the actual figures associated with a certain model.

2009 Auto Suzuki Swift:
1.5L / 74kw / 133nm (petrol)
Kerb weight 1050kg
GCM 2470kg
Braked tow rating 1000kg.

2009 Auto Ford Focus:
2L / 100kw / 320nm (diesel)
Kerb weight 1458kg
GCM - not stated
Braked Tow rating 900kg.

The details for the manual are the same except it has a slightly lighter Kerb weight.

You then have the 2010 Focus XR5 manual:
2.5L / 166kw / 320nm
Kerb weight 1366kg
GCM - not stated
Braked tow rating 0kg (yes - nil).

2012 Ranger XL Hi-rider auto:
2.2L / 110kw / 375nm (diesel)
Kerb weight 1759kg
GCM - 5950
Braked tow rating 3350kg

2013 Hyundai Santa Fe auto:
2.2L / 145kw / 436nm (diesel)
Kerb weight - 1968kg
GCM - 4600kg
Braked tow rating - 2000kg.

Looking at those figures leaves me quite confused!

Imagine putting a ton behind a Swift? Yet when I put a ton behind my diesel Focus it didn't even raise a sweat....
Have I read correctly that in Europe the diesel Focus has a much higher tow rating? Why?

It's fine to put near double the weight behind the Ranger, yet the heavier and much more powerful Santa Fe is only good for 2000kg.

I assume there are many other factors like transmission / wheels / body strength / suspension etc that come into play but the comparison between the Swift and the Focus still has me scratching my head.....

[SumoDog68]

Each manufacturer works out their tow ratings depending (like you said ) on many variables.
Focus LV is power shift which is probably limiting factor in its towing capacity. Santa Fe is unibody and Ranger is full chassis. Manufacturers construct them , test them and rate them :-)

[simon varley]

focus tow weight for Australia is limited by its ability to keep cool. Europe not (generally) so hot therefore can tow more weight.

XR5 deliberately not a tow car as it doesn't suit the marketing image.

[mechanic]

Originally Posted by BadMax

@mechanic with the complexity of construction and materials used in vehicles today, doing what used to be done would probably write the vehicle off.

Yes I think that's correct. Saw some Air bag friendly 4wd bullbars that had a crumple section incorporated just before the mounting position on the chassis rail.
After extended sessions on corrugated roads the bullbars fell off as the crumple section cracked off completely.
Very disturbing those pics of the X Trail.

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by zilo

Your opinion/approval is of no value to me.

Another one for the ignore list....

That's OK, but I'm still waiting....

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by zilo

Your opinion/approval is of no value to me.

Another one for the ignore list....

yoo are my fav

never block

[tex]

[IMG][/IMG]

That's what I lug around behind my old effy.

It mightn't be flash, or fast, but its fit for purpose, never gets hot, always pulls up, keeps that boat straight and under control. Despite 650lt fuel under the boats floor and enough gear to start a tackle shop or open a fish shop on my way home.

The pics of that broken away tow hitch are frightening.

And like I said earlier, a popular and big selling 3500kg rated dual cab couldn't lug the same as my old manual F truck, which I might add, is still on the original clutch despite having towed and hauled its way to 250000+ km.

The gearing in modern soft 4x4 vehicles, in order to make them feel like a car on the hwy, and to use minimal fuel when unloaded, renders them not commercial. Despite what they are classified as by manufacturers and the public.

The old effy, she's got a crawler first gear, it will only do about 25kmh flat out lol. Unladen, 2nd gear starts are the norm....

[blackf6]

But f series are classed as light trucks. No dramas. Hilux, ranger, ect are just Utes.