Move over Porsche and Ferrari, here come the supercars disguised as sedans.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Steffo

One important factor to consider when comparing them in speed is that the German cars are engineered to regularly be driven at 180-200km/h+ speeds (read: Autobahn), whereas the HSV is engineered for Australia, ie: 110km/h absolute max. The structural integrity and high speed stability of the other two is light years ahead of anything made here, and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out, its just part of the reason they're $220,000, not $80,000.

Spending $30,000 modifying the HSV won't bring it to the same level as the other two. Sure, you could make it spank them in a straight line, but methinks the engineers at M and AMG tend to make vehicles quite universally capable, as opposed to being simple drag rockets. It'd take ALOT of money put into a local product to be brought on par with those two.

I agree with you on this one - In one of the mag tests a while back they got an XR6 Turbo to do over 300km/h for not many $$$ - however they said it was wandering all over the place, very unstable, felt like it was going to spear off the road ect.

[ssj_jaypee]

HSV has every right to be compared to top BMW and Merc cars.
I recently took a HSV GTS 300 coupe for a spin (customer brought it into work to get repaired) and I must say not only does it look so much better than those Euro cars on the outside but the interior is really sexy too. Very high quality imo.
No doubt this thing could pull like a freight train also.
For its $100,000 price tag I would prefer a GTS over something much more dearer like an M5.

[ltd]

Well SSJ, If you were going to use that HSV to its straight line speed potential or even shovel it abit on the freeway I would have to ask you; is yours or another life worth 100K? Because like I said in my previous post, the car is just not designed to be driven over about 140Km/h. Plus, smash and HSV at 140Kmh and I guarantee that you would not survive.

Crash an M or n AMG at the same or greater speed and you will get out and walk away, crying over the damage to the car. That's if in fact you do crash the M or AMG because hey, with all of their progressive and adaptive safety systems such as ESP, Electronic Dampening, automatically adjustable ride height, EBD, ABS, collision avoidance systems such as the sonar on the front which applies the brakes at maximum force, as well as the fact that the cars are stiffer and balanced and many other features, it is hard to imagine one in a fatal accident. Then you wouldn't need the 12 or so airbags as well as safety cell etc to save your behind.

So, is yours or others safety and capacity to drive fast worth an extra 100K?

HSV is the perennial Versace Wannabe, or the fake Rolex you can buy on the street for 50 bucks. And the only real problem is that their alleged ability to go super fast creaps into the psyche of the individuals driving them. The amount of times I have seen people almost lose it in their HSV's is frightening. The amount of accidents I've seen because of prepubescent idiots driving HSV's are horrifying. All because of a super go fast pedal with an ill suited amount of power for an otherwise family car chassis.

Just look at the way HSV and Holden market their cars, donuts in a paddock with some tornado effect?????WTF?
Speeding along a road at really high speed with a catchphrase of "life inside an HSV".???
Curiously Holden is trying to appeal to the shacka demographic, as it is obviously they who buy the cars.
Compare it to ford, who have cars so powerful that they are only idling along with 50 or more police giving slow chase. Or a ute that gets all of the hot women. In these ads, nothing eludes to how fast it goes, or how much grunt for breaking the law it has. Besides, Ford doesn't have an identity crisis whereby every bogan with an executive tries to make it look like an SS, even though its a V6.

HSV - No thanks

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Steffo

One important factor to consider when comparing them in speed is that the German cars are engineered to regularly be driven at 180-200km/h+ speeds (read: Autobahn), whereas the HSV is engineered for Australia, ie: 110km/h absolute max. The structural integrity and high speed stability of the other two is light years ahead of anything made here, and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out, its just part of the reason they're $220,000, not $80,000.

Spending $30,000 modifying the HSV won't bring it to the same level as the other two. Sure, you could make it spank them in a straight line, but methinks the engineers at M and AMG tend to make vehicles quite universally capable, as opposed to being simple drag rockets. It'd take ALOT of money put into a local product to be brought on par with those two.

You forget that the Commodore/Statesman is exported to the Middle East which has no speed limit, and I remember reading an article that mentioned that they only know one speed - flat out.

Seriously, do you really think that the Holden engineers sat down & come to the conclusion that 110km/h is the top speed of Australian roads, so we won't over engineer the safety of the structure, and stuff the export market they'll be happy with whatever they get.

Wake up & smell the roses on the other side will ya.

Of course there is a difference, but not "light years."

[4Vman]

Apart from the obvious technological differences and refinements you need to live with a Euro car for a while to see the differences, it isnt just about power or handling, its about quality of build, functionality, durability etc.
A GTS or GT-P is rather coarse by comparrison, not only in the way it goes about its work but durability and feel, especially after the vehicles get 2 - 3 years old, thats when the euro build quality starts to really become evident.
My SLK230 looked and felt like a new car after 3 years, my AUIIXR8 by comparrison didnt fare anywhere near as well, with similar usage.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ltd

Well SSJ, If you were going to use that HSV to its straight line speed potential or even shovel it abit on the freeway I would have to ask you; is yours or another life worth 100K? Because like I said in my previous post, the car is just not designed to be driven over about 140Km/h. Plus, smash and HSV at 140Kmh and I guarantee that you would not survive.

Crash an M or n AMG at the same or greater speed and you will get out and walk away, crying over the damage to the car. That's if in fact you do crash the M or AMG because hey, with all of their progressive and adaptive safety systems such as ESP, Electronic Dampening, automatically adjustable ride height, EBD, ABS, collision avoidance systems such as the sonar on the front which applies the brakes at maximum force, as well as the fact that the cars are stiffer and balanced and many other features, it is hard to imagine one in a fatal accident. Then you wouldn't need the 12 or so airbags as well as safety cell etc to save your behind.

So, is yours or others safety and capacity to drive fast worth an extra 100K?

HSV is the perennial Versace Wannabe, or the fake Rolex you can buy on the street for 50 bucks. And the only real problem is that their alleged ability to go super fast creaps into the psyche of the individuals driving them. The amount of times I have seen people almost lose it in their HSV's is frightening. The amount of accidents I've seen because of prepubescent idiots driving HSV's are horrifying. All because of a super go fast pedal with an ill suited amount of power for an otherwise family car chassis.

Just look at the way HSV and Holden market their cars, donuts in a paddock with some tornado effect?????WTF?
Speeding along a road at really high speed with a catchphrase of "life inside an HSV".???
Curiously Holden is trying to appeal to the shacka demographic, as it is obviously they who buy the cars.
Compare it to ford, who have cars so powerful that they are only idling along with 50 or more police giving slow chase. Or a ute that gets all of the hot women. In these ads, nothing eludes to how fast it goes, or how much grunt for breaking the law it has. Besides, Ford doesn't have an identity crisis whereby every bogan with an executive tries to make it look like an SS, even though its a V6.

HSV - No thanks

I think you've made a very good point, look at the demographic of the average HSV/SS customer compared to that of an XR/GT customer.
I might upset a few people here but HSV/Holden have allways appealed or been marketed in a way to appeal more to the Hoon/bogan/boy racer market.
Ford/FPV on the other hand have developed their cars and marketing plan more towards the slightly older more refined and sophisticated customer.. The cars have a slightly more "euro" look and feel to them.

[ltd]

4Vman,

Amen brother.

And also notice the way alot of these people drive. This does not cover every holden/HSV customer, but at least 50% of the time you will see someone driving one of these cars doing something stupid and dangerous. I know this is going to stir up a lot of angst amongst our fellow posters, but before you vent just try this. Drive your car on the freeway and take note of the brand of car that does the following.
1/ Block the right lane
2/ Tail Gate
3/ Overtake unsafely
4/ Cut you off
5/ Flash their lights at you
6/ Change lanes without indicating
7/ Change lanes without looking

Once you have had all of these things happen to you, and you have taken notice of what make of car predominantly does this, feel free to come back and vent at me.
HSV - Highly Strung Volvo

[Des]

Originally Posted by ltd

4Vman,

HSV - Highly Strung Volvo

: : : :

[ssj_jaypee]

Originally Posted by ltd

Well SSJ, If you were going to use that HSV to its straight line speed potential or even shovel it abit on the freeway I would have to ask you; is yours or another life worth 100K? Because like I said in my previous post, the car is just not designed to be driven over about 140Km/h. Plus, smash and HSV at 140Kmh and I guarantee that you would not survive.

Crash an M or n AMG at the same or greater speed and you will get out and walk away, crying over the damage to the car. That's if in fact you do crash the M or AMG because hey, with all of their progressive and adaptive safety systems such as ESP, Electronic Dampening, automatically adjustable ride height, EBD, ABS, collision avoidance systems such as the sonar on the front which applies the brakes at maximum force, as well as the fact that the cars are stiffer and balanced and many other features, it is hard to imagine one in a fatal accident. Then you wouldn't need the 12 or so airbags as well as safety cell etc to save your behind.

So, is yours or others safety and capacity to drive fast worth an extra 100K?

HSV is the perennial Versace Wannabe, or the fake Rolex you can buy on the street for 50 bucks. And the only real problem is that their alleged ability to go super fast creaps into the psyche of the individuals driving them. The amount of times I have seen people almost lose it in their HSV's is frightening. The amount of accidents I've seen because of prepubescent idiots driving HSV's are horrifying. All because of a super go fast pedal with an ill suited amount of power for an otherwise family car chassis.

Just look at the way HSV and Holden market their cars, donuts in a paddock with some tornado effect?????WTF?
Speeding along a road at really high speed with a catchphrase of "life inside an HSV".???
Curiously Holden is trying to appeal to the shacka demographic, as it is obviously they who buy the cars.
Compare it to ford, who have cars so powerful that they are only idling along with 50 or more police giving slow chase. Or a ute that gets all of the hot women. In these ads, nothing eludes to how fast it goes, or how much grunt for breaking the law it has. Besides, Ford doesn't have an identity crisis whereby every bogan with an executive tries to make it look like an SS, even though its a V6.

HSV - No thanks

Umm yeah, I guess HSV's arent designed to go faster than 140 because they have a top speed of over 260.
They dont use the complete same setup as the commodore.
Better suspension, drivetrain, brakes, steering, tyres, etc.
Plus front/side airbags, EBD, ABS, etc are all standard on them anyway.
I think you just have too much hate towards holden.

[XR6ISM]

I still find it amusing that people try comparing 90k cars with 200k cars. Its like comparing a Nike sneaker to a dunlop sneaker. The both do the same thing, and essentially, serve the same purpose. One is however more refined, one does it with more class, and generally speaking, one will keep doing the task it was designed for much longer.

Nobody can sit her and say that the HSV (which mind you, is a nice peice of machinery, comming from a Ford nut this is a comment and a half) can be compared with the Euros. The euro cars are well refined and engineered. They are a class of their own. To compare the car with the euro, everything needs to be taken into consideration, performance, brakes, features, warranty, service cost, interior/exterior design, even something simple like colour range. Just going by performance doesnt cut it in my books.

Anyway, tis my 10 cents worth.

[FTE217]

yer a top speed of 260 in a straight line if anything !
They don't handle corners very well at all ! Instead of all the nice marketing $$ they spend should go and develop there cornering speed/stability.
Don't get me wrong likesome of the others I like some of Holdens products very much.
Infact I have owned some fast ones and driven many others which have awesum horsepower but lack the finesse.
My fathers gutless c180 Merc handles better than any Holden I've driven believe me thats one thing the Euros get right !

[AU1FORME]

Originally Posted by Casper

I've also driven an E55 and even a few S classes... whoopy. Not what I asked.

Tell us all why you think that the HSV figures stated in the article are crap?

Have you driven one? Have you seen one at the drag strip? Has one of your uncles got one?

Steffo, your the king of "magazine quoted figures" and yet, when one of these figures suddenly disagrees with your opinion, you junk it without any explination or reason.

And you wonder why people rate your opinions as the ramblings of a wannabe? Back it up... or shut up.

Blooming heck Casper , dont let me get on the wrong side of you now will ya. :voldar02:

[Hardtopxb]

Including Price$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[MITCHAY]

We all talk about the safety of those Euro cars but take this into consideration. Where exactly is it legal in Australia other than the outback to do 140km/h?

Yes you crash a Merc at 60,80,100,110km/h you are more likely to walk away from it. But your not neccessarily goin to die in a HSV either.

You go over the speed limit anyways you run the risk seeing as though its illegal in the first place. Still remember HSVs are big cars aswell.

I think its more stupid to pay $200k more just for the rights to delibrately break the law to say youve got more chance of surviving.

One person crashes at 60km/h can die whilst one person crashes at 100km/h and lives. There are so many variables to consider. IMO i would rather drive safely than fork out $200k to be a d**khead.

Drive sensibly to the conditions and thats the best way to be safe. Preventing the accident is better than relying on a vehicles features to enable you to survive in any car.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by ssj_jaypee

Umm yeah, I guess HSV's arent designed to go faster than 140 because they have a top speed of over 260.
They dont use the complete same setup as the commodore.
Better suspension, drivetrain, brakes, steering, tyres, etc.
Plus front/side airbags, EBD, ABS, etc are all standard on them anyway.
I think you just have too much hate towards holden.

Hmmm OK.
Firstly, as someone who knows a bit about aerodynamics I can tell you that NO commodore is stable at 260kmh.
Even if you put mercedes or bmw suspension etc on it it still won't be stable at that speed. Why I hear you ask?
Well, simply because the aero on the body is not designed to do it. All the air buffeting under the hood,clumsily trailing over the undercarriage, and then spilling out of the back with no direction, no purpose. AMG and BMW have smooth underfloors to allow less wind resistance, have rear diffusers to tunnel the air cleanly and increase road holding, front diffusers to channel the air to the radaptive suspension to improve the nett ground effect (the car lowers at speed), and basically a hell of a lot of technology from the formula1 program that both manufacturers are involved with.

Holden have what for testing data? Skaifies best ever stories?????
Pity those cars only similarity is the shape of the body, and not much else.

No matter what Holden do, they still have a large family sedan trying to push an envelope that only affords stability to more aerodynamically efficient vehicles. No matter how many "sick" wings or body kits holden put on their cars, they will not be as aerodynamically efficient nor stable at speed as the likes of the performance cars that BMW and Mercedes build.

And by the way, Holden's safety systems and chassis are good, but they are not designed to protect an individual in an accident beyond 140km/h. (check burea of statistics data for crashes over 140km/h). Even if the speedo says 260 (aren't Australian cars speed Governed to 180km/h anyway), the car will not safely get there and to be honest, you would have to be a real d*ckhead to even try it.

[Des]

Originally Posted by ltd

Even if the speedo says 260 (aren't Australian cars speed Governed to 180km/h anyway), the car will not safely get there and to be honest, you would have to be a real d*ckhead to even try it.

You might want to re-think this statement. Some Aussie car are infact limited but not all, I've seen 200 (indicated) on the XR's dial (yes in the appropriate place). This was with near new tyres and was still pulling hard.
There have been more than one occasion that I know of where HSV's have been speed tested to 250+ (radar checked). Infact as far as I know, the fastest HSV at the moment is the auto coupe at 270 km/h (again radar checked), I think the manual "only" does approx. 260 in fifth. Apprentally the car was quite stable at these speeds on the speed bowl. CSV's have been clocked at over 270 (285 I think) also. The difference between the forces acting on a car at 270 as compared to 300+ are huge. I think it's something like squared for every 10 km/h.

[MITCHAY]

They got the GTS Coupe up to 283 or 293 but cant remember but it was with one of the V8SC drivers on that high banked test facility thingy. Ive seen a video of it before but cant remember what speed it was. I know it was one or the other thats for sure.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by XR6ISM

I still find it amusing that people try comparing 90k cars with 200k cars. Its like comparing a Nike sneaker to a dunlop sneaker. The both do the same thing, and essentially, serve the same purpose. One is however more refined, one does it with more class, and generally speaking, one will keep doing the task it was designed for much longer.

.....

I agree with you. The BMW & Mercedes have a lot more dollars spent on development, engineering, materials, wages, share holders, etc.
They are in a different league, but the article was just about how much we, as Australian's, can do with limited resources. Read the article here; http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=18981

And also, just because the price tag is $250,000 doesn't mean that it is worth that much.

Mercedes-Benz CLS 55 AMG
Australian Price tag; $247,900
European price tag; 75000 Euro - AUS$121770
England price tag;70570 UK - AUS$167830
Canadian price tag;125600 Can - AUS$139240

BMW M5
Australian Price tag; $226,000
England price tag;62705 UK - AUS$149159

Tax between countries is different, but......

[merlin]

Originally Posted by ltd

Drive your car on the freeway and take note of the brand of car that does the following.
1/ Block the right lane
2/ Tail Gate
3/ Overtake unsafely
4/ Cut you off
5/ Flash their lights at you
6/ Change lanes without indicating
7/ Change lanes without looking

Once you have had all of these things happen to you, and you have taken notice of what make of car predominantly does this, feel free to come back and vent at me.

OK I went and did this - The Toyota Camry wins :

[4Vman]

Talk about uncanny..... this arvo on my way to a customers place, driving along the west gate freeway i saw a GT-P followed by a Clubsport, the driver of the GT-P was wearing a business suit and looked in his mid 40's, the 4 occupants of the clubsport all looked late 20's early 30's and to be wearing HRT jackets etc etc.. and looked to be consuming a can or 2.....
I drove past chuckling to myself after the discussions this morning about Bogans and HSV's.....

[nang3]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I agree with you. The BMW & Mercedes have a lot more dollars spent on development, engineering, materials, wages, share holders, etc.
They are in a different league, but the article was just about how much we, as Australian's, can do with limited resources. Read the article here; http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=18981

And also, just because the price tag is $250,000 doesn't mean that it is worth that much.

Mercedes-Benz CLS 55 AMG
Australian Price tag; $247,900
European price tag; 75000 Euro - AUS$121770
England price tag;70570 UK - AUS$167830
Canadian price tag;125600 Can - AUS$139240

BMW M5
Australian Price tag; $226,000
England price tag;62705 UK - AUS$149159

Tax between countries is different, but......

Dont forget the US price for the Merc - AUS $114,743 !!
DDDAAAAMN, you could buy 2 CLS's in the states and have a lazy $20K left over for the price of an aussie one !!

Australia = :

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Des

You might want to re-think this statement. Some Aussie car are infact limited but not all, I've seen 200 (indicated) on the XR's dial (yes in the appropriate place). This was with near new tyres and was still pulling hard.
There have been more than one occasion that I know of where HSV's have been speed tested to 250+ (radar checked). Infact as far as I know, the fastest HSV at the moment is the auto coupe at 270 km/h (again radar checked), I think the manual "only" does approx. 260 in fifth. Apprentally the car was quite stable at these speeds on the speed bowl. CSV's have been clocked at over 270 (285 I think) also. The difference between the forces acting on a car at 270 as compared to 300+ are huge. I think it's something like squared for every 10 km/h.

Ok, a speed bowl huh?
Controlled conditions like a speed bowl are not conducive to real life. As the car tries to turn the corner, and the lateral loads of the car attempt to keep the car going in a straight line, adhesion is significantly aided by the angle of bank on the track, effectively pushing the car to the surface. Nowhere outside of controlled conditions does this same phenomona occur on the same scale. It is the additional downforce that is one of the major contributing reasons to the failure of michelin to be able to supply suitable tyres for the ill fated turn 13 at Indianapolis in the USA grand prix this year.

Like I said before, HSV may be able to make their cars go really fast, but to do it safely in the real world is another matter.

I can put a 750hp turbine engine in a mini moke, and make it do 600km/h but would it be stable or safe?

Ask Mark Webber. Twice in the same weekend he flipped a Mclaren road car because the air flow was not effectively generating enough downforce when it was interrupted by traffic. Admittedly that was several years ago, but that car was designed for aerodynamic reasons, as opposed to Holden who design cars for aesthetic, and practical reasons. Aero to the big cars is not a primary design aspect, because the cars seldomly travel at such speeds ayway. To give some balance on the issue I would not push a Ford that hard either, as it is not designed for it.

[ssj_jaypee]

Originally Posted by ltd

I can put a 750hp turbine engine in a mini moke, and make it do 600km/h but would it be stable or safe?

No you cant.
You = t3h l0se!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ssj_jaypee

No you cant.
You = t3h l0se!

what? :

[ltd]

Originally Posted by ssj_jaypee

No you cant.
You = t3h l0se!

And you know that because?

You = ginaorat

[Falcon Coupe]

Slightly off topic, i think there is a lot of middle ground price wise between the Euro's and the Holden, a nice slot of around $130,000 to fit a BF GT HO to give them all a push along. :

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Slightly off topic, i think there is a lot of middle ground price wise between the Euro's and the Holden, a nice slot of around $130,000 to fit a BF GT HO to give them all a push along. :

Thats about the price i think it would end up being (if not more).
Now it will come down to how many people would pay that for an Australian built car...

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by ltd

Ask Mark Webber. Twice in the same weekend he flipped a Mclaren road car because the air flow was not effectively generating enough downforce when it was interrupted by traffic. Admittedly that was several years ago, but that car was designed for aerodynamic reasons, as opposed to Holden who design cars for aesthetic, and practical reasons. Aero to the big cars is not a primary design aspect, because the cars seldomly travel at such speeds ayway. To give some balance on the issue I would not push a Ford that hard either, as it is not designed for it.

Erm, McLaren road car? He flipped a Mercedes-Benz CLK/LM.... at LeMans.

Like this one...

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Thats about the price i think it would end up being (if not more).
Now it will come down to how many people would pay that for an Australian built car...

I know Alex would.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

I know Alex would.

We've both got deposits for one (if they ever happen) with our dealer!
Word around the GT clubs is if it ever happens most will be snapped up by collectors.