5 young men killed in high speed crash.

[balthazarr]

I was involved in a fairly major accident (one that did not involve any other vehicle) when I was 17. Dad's car ended up wrapped around a stobie pole. I was lucky, the car hit on the passenger's side not mine (the door pillar ended up 3/4 into the centre console), and the power lines, though damaged, did not fall and touch the car. I walked away shaken, but otherwise unscathed.

Police investigated and, though no charges were laid, I was 'asked' to attend a driver training course run by the police. I don't really remember the details, but I do remember watching video footage of real victims, real accidents, real gore... it was pretty full on.

That, combined with the fact that I'd almost died, has helped shape my driving to this day.

Obviously, we can't make every P plater have an accident that could have killed them, but we can make them see the consequences and hopefully understand that driving a car is not 'fun'... it's serious, with potentially deadly consequences.

Every P plate applicant should have to sit through a similar sort of video - real stuff, not the TAC effects - and then be tested on the video to ensure they were paying attention.

Maybe that way it might get through to a few of them... even though they'll still feel like they're invincible.

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

The emphasis nationally IS on the defensive driver components; hazard perception et al, to 'scan' etc in order to not get into trouble in the first place. Its in our driver handbooks. We even give learner candidates a FREE driving lesson now.

And it's a fact that a lot of driving instructors teach you how to pass the test, NOT how to be a good driver.....

I'm talking about the 'advanced driving' courses, where they actually teach you HOW TO DRIVE - how to control your car during a skid or spin etc....so at least if the kids are doing stupid things, their improved skill level may prevent them from killing others or themselves...]

BTW it's a shame to see how far off-topic this thread has gotten in the last few hours...

[ltd]

When I was 18 I saw the video from the Ambulance guys when they attended accidents; the one with the old 60's model white fairlane that hit a tree at 180 or so head on (no skid marks) and wasn't all that damaged, until you looked inside. The level of horror in this changed me. The girl that was one foot taller than on her records thanks to her bones shattering being laid out on the blanket made me feel ill. After seeing it, I lost all of my bravado (not mojo); I learnt new respect for moving objects. There were other accidents in there too which had a similar effect, but I decided then and there to learn new respect for what was ostensibly keeping me alive whilst travelling. It's not speed that kills, it's how we are decelerated that does. We can decelerate in a controlled way like when we apply the brakes, or we can decelerate suddenly by hitting a solid object. Your car essentially is the only thing between you and that object. Kids should learn this kind of thing and it should be compulsory, they should also be subjected to the full on gore of it all, it will ingrain in their heads the reality of the consequences of stupidity and recklessness.

[tex]

Should have been locked yesturday.

[fromBAonwards]

i think that the Road Safety Act 1986 should include more sections specially around the Section 84 of the Act in relationship to anybody who misuses a vehicle in an improper way.
I still feel sorry for the loss of human life. It was a day that could have been completely avoided by just sticking to the speed limit.

[Bucknaked]

This is 2010. Long gone are the days where a small car is gutless and can't do anything. A lot of the small cars today have more power than bigger cars from 30 years ago. Those using that excuse are just full of it.

[deesun]

Originally Posted by tex

Should have been locked yesturday.

Agreed

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by ltd

Need to enforce licencing rules.

New licencees should also pay a bond of $1000.00 to the RTA or whatever, able to be lost through fines and/or smaller fines such as talking on the mobile whilst driving etc. This gives young drivers an incentive to behave, as well as weed out the idiots who shouldn't have a licence anyway. Sounds expensive I know, but to a kid at 15 thinking of getting their licence they would start to save early and appreciate their learners permit/P plates that much more.

We should also look at a card reader with a smart chip like on your Visa card that ascertains drivers licence types matched to that particular car ie, your P plate son cannot literally start your F6 typhoon. Also, those without a licence cannot start anything period without licence card. Quite cheap technology and would do a lot to stop thousands of idiots. Further, technology could be adapted to facial recognition match with the card and the car which would be a key feature to a lot of high end models; prevent a lot of thefts too.

Another thing is like the Valet key in fords in the USA, stops the car being revved over 2500rpm and stops the car from speeding over 40mph. It actually activates a different map in the cars computer to stop valets from thrashing your engine. This would be good for those who claim their kid has to use the family car. Could use card reader I mentioned before instead of special key to activate the "Valet Mode" mapping.

Licence progression could be as follows;

P1 should have no passengers, drive a car with a power to weight ratio of maximum 70kw/tonne and be used only in the local area. 12 - 18 months duration.

P2 should only have 1 passenger and have the same power to weight ration as P1. 2 years duration.

Unrestricted should require the driver to pass another driving test conducted by an advanced driving course before giving unrestricted licence. Cost will be covered by bond paid at the beginning of licence and at the end the remainder of the bond is paid back to the now licenced driver.
Gives an incentive to the driver to behave themselves, as well as stops them avoiding fines.
Finally, the dragstrip is a good idea, give the young fellas something to do instead of play with their Wii Wii's

All very good points but remember.. The state politicians dont wanna lose votes, so while what you say is probably 100% on the money, we will never see it, because in the end governments are only going to take minimal steps when it comes to possible loss of voters!

[fromBAonwards]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

This is 2010. Long gone are the days where a small car is gutless and can't do anything. A lot of the small cars today have more power than bigger cars from 30 years ago. Those using that excuse are just full of it.

Interesting, one of the online articles said a 2009 model XR6, by the look of the lights and the wheels, it was at least 2005 BF XR6, probably a non turbo, may be a Turbo?. Other than that it would have not been quicker than a similar Taxi "same engine" as we know. But still , its not all about power, its the TORQUE too, Torque can unfortunately confuse inexperienced drivers and take them too far.

[Bobman]

It was a 2007 BF2 XR6 N/A from what I've seen and read.

[trendkill555666]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Ned i believe you nailed a large part of the problem right there, it's not something that can be fixed by road legislation either.

I agree totally, I'm 30 now but when I was 16-18 I did not care about anything, thought I was bulletproof.

I've never had a big accident (touch wood) but I did some really stupid things back in the day, but growing up in the small town in south australia and my first two cars being an LJ torana and a LC torana, I had room to learn how to correct and over correct myself, not that I'm saying going out on country roads and doing fishies is a smart thing but I learnt.

Now I have two kids with a third on the way and I like the idea of car companies offering offensive driving courses but not everyone is going to have access to these. I think driving should be part of education in schools from a young age (late primary school) and actual driving classes in high school.

I think we all know that ads on TV make no impression at all and people are always going to do stupid thing bit I think it has to come from a life time of education. (and not just from schools, parents have alot to answer for)

[4Vman]

Im not sure how the car is really relevant to this particular incident.... it was within the allowed restrictions but it was driven in a reckless manner...
From what i can tell the media arent blamming it either....

[fromBAonwards]

still too powerful and the same thing as a BF 2005 , the difference would be the MkII sign, but at the same time very late 2007 models had silver highlights and minor body kit aesthetic mods for very late 2007 and early 2008 BF2 XR6-8 and Turbo.
Its a shame how we cant specify the TORQUE of a car and levels of it allowable for drivers to have under the foot. I guess some would argue that power and torque have a direct relationship, true, but still Torque should be specified too.
No car more than 250Nm should be given to a P plater to make their lives safer! 380Nm + is a lot if you think about it consciously.

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

From what i can tell the media arent blamming it either

Almost every news article has mentioned "high powered Falcon" or "high performance car".

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Every article says "high powered Falcon" or "high performance car".

Splitting hairs really, can't see huge problem with that...

The problem on this occasion appears to be caused by the manner in which it was driven... not "overpowering" the road on a corner etc....

It now appears the driver had been drinking.
Excessive Speed, reckless behaviour and alcohol will be the media focus, not the car.

[trendkill555666]

Originally Posted by fromBAonwards

still too powerful and the same thing as a BF 2005 , the difference would be the MkII sign, but at the same time very late 2007 models had silver highlights and minor body kit aesthetic mods for very late 2007 and early 2008 BF2 XR6-8 and Turbo.
Its a shame how we cant specify the TORQUE of a car and levels of it allowable for drivers to have under the foot. I guess some would argue that power and torque have a direct relationship, true, but still Torque should be specified too.
No car more than 250Nm should be given to a P plater to make their lives safer! 380Nm + is a lot if you think about it consciously.

don't think it matters, you could wrap a 4 cylinder diesel around a tree if you want.

[jamesson1980]

Originally Posted by fromBAonwards

...it was at least 2005 BF XR6, probably a non turbo, may be a Turbo?. Other than that it would have not been quicker than a similar Taxi "same engine" as we know. But still , its not all about power, its the TORQUE too, Torque can unfortunately confuse inexperienced drivers and take them too far.

Agreed... INEXPERIENCED is the key word... the car shouldn't be blamed, I remember similar extreme speed / stupidity accidents thru the 90's and 00's involving far older and 'slower' cars than this XR6. I'm reminded of one everytime I head out west of Melbourne on the Western Freeway, where a teen killed a number of his friends in an XD falcon in 1992 or thereabouts. Not due to the neck snapping torque of the crusty ol 6cyl but just because he was inexperienced and his ego caused him to be naive enough to think he was able to fully control of a vehicle travelling at 150km/h+. He utilized a very steep curved bit of road followed by a long straight to get up to a tall speed then lost it on the straight and hit a steel freeway gantry, spreading his Dad's car and his friends all over M8. Any car can kill, I'm sure mine could kill me if I tried to pull a show-off manouvre at 160km/h. The DRIVER just needs to think and understand everything he/she is doing and all the possible outcomes of pushing the limits of his/her experience, the road and the conditions.. Education is the key, followed up by VERY strict consequences for those caught behaving like this on our roads. Even more severe for repeat offenders.. Steel cube anyone?

[fromBAonwards]

i know i know, any car when driven in suicidal manner can be dangerous. But what if something unexpectedly pops up, like a kangaroo or a horse on the road? or perhaps something falls on the side of the road? , and you're doing 100km/h?
Life is full of unpredictable unwanted accidents.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by fromBAonwards

i know i know, any car when driven in suicidal manner can be dangerous. But what if something unexpectedly pops up, like a kangaroo or a horse on the road? or perhaps something falls on the side of the road? , and you're doing 100km/h?
Life is full of unpredictable unwanted accidents.

Yes.. but that isnt what happened on this occasion was it...
Weaving through traffic at 140kph+ in an overloaded car when the traffic is doing upto 70kph slower is a recipe for disaster, from what has been said he misjudged the gutter and clipped it sending him into an out of control spin and into the tree....

[Bobman]

There's a story about it now on ACA for anyone interested.

[fromBAonwards]

i know, it is unacceptable to society to lose kids at such young age:(

[Fireblade]

As long as there is human involvement, stupid decisions will be made, we have all made stupid decisions in our life time, most without fatal or grievous consequences but stupid none the less. Human nature is human nature and as long as we can make our own decisions stuff like this will happen, we are not robots and therefore think for ourselves, all we can hope is that the person next to us on the road, at work or any other public place can make a sound decision that doesnt inflict this sort of carnage on us. The only way we can stop things like this is to become robots without our own decision process which will take the human factor away.

[Airmon]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Splitting hairs really, can't see huge problem with that...

The problem on this occasion appears to be caused by the manner in which it was driven... not "overpowering" the road on a corner etc....

It now appears the driver had been drinking.
Excessive Speed, reckless behaviour and alcohol will be the media focus, not the car.

True but Once the pressure is on the government to act, restrictions will be the easiest to put in place and the car the easiest to single out.

[TUF_302]

I just seen the car on ACA it was an 07 BF2 XR6, but thats beside the point really, result would have been the same weather it was that or an EA GL or what ever, they cant blame the car, it doesn't drive it self at such speeds

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Airmon

True but Once the pressure is on the government to act, restrictions will be the easiest to put in place and the car the easiest to single out.

To be honest the media have been pretty fair and balanced about the car, its the drivers (and passengers) behaviour that has received the most attention.

[fromBAonwards]

true. Lets hope we catch more car hoons;) and punish them harsher to deter future offenders perhaps do some denunciation and send a stronger message to the community.

[XR_6falcon]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not sure how the car is really relevant to this particular incident.... it was within the allowed restrictions but it was driven in a reckless manner...
From what i can tell the media arent blamming it either....

Today tonight used the words "high powered" several times including when they showed a VS como in an incident and it too was "high powered"

[MINTXY]

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

Agreed... INEXPERIENCED is the key word... the car shouldn't be blamed, I remember similar extreme speed / stupidity accidents thru the 90's and 00's involving far older and 'slower' cars than this XR6. I'm reminded of one everytime I head out west of Melbourne on the Western Freeway, where a teen killed a number of his friends in an XD falcon in 1992 or thereabouts. Not due to the neck snapping torque of the crusty ol 6cyl but just because he was inexperienced and his ego caused him to be naive enough to think he was able to fully control of a vehicle travelling at 150km/h+. He utilized a very steep curved bit of road followed by a long straight to get up to a tall speed then lost it on the straight and hit a steel freeway gantry, spreading his Dad's car and his friends all over M8. Any car can kill, I'm sure mine could kill me if I tried to pull a show-off manouvre at 160km/h. The DRIVER just needs to think and understand everything he/she is doing and all the possible outcomes of pushing the limits of his/her experience, the road and the conditions.. Education is the key, followed up by VERY strict consequences for those caught behaving like this on our roads. Even more severe for repeat offenders.. Steel cube anyone?

i agree 100% with what you said there. It all comes down to people thinking they are race car drivers when at the end of the day even the best drivers in the world die in car crashes. I no people that have died in cars, had people i no write cars off, put cars on there roofs, and even a mate get stuck & burn in his car. I think it comes down to parents needing to teach/discipline their children about just how dangerous cars can be if not driven sensibly and schools enforcing it aswell. Everyone who sits for their licence should be shown videos and pictures of what happens on the road when things go wrong i think that would have a big impact. Other than that it is very sad to see accidents like this happen when they can be avoided so easily such a waste of life.

[UNR8D]

fromBAonwards, its power to weight that counts not torque.

ok, a camry will do 200+ have the vid to prove it, albit it took a long straight from darwin to alice springs a few years back to do it but it did, same for the avalon etc etc that I had driven out there a few years back, hell a 100 series V8 landcruiser would mumble along at 175/180 once pushed so most cars will do that, but the entire fact here is that the speed was used in an inappropate area, and its seeming like there are alot of outside factors on top of speed that led to this outcome.

heres and idea, start a new thread once the details of the crash investigation have been relseased once we have some educated oppinions about what went wrong etc, because untill then its all armchair critic's saying how it should and shouldnt be... myself included.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by XR_6falcon

Today tonight used the words "high powered" several times including when they showed a VS como in an incident and it too was "high powered"

Did they blame the power of the car for the accident? NO.
Lets face it, it was a "performance" falcon, to the media its a sports/performance Falcon, their entitled to present the informantion.