Will the Holden brand survive?

[Syndrome]

People are already starting to ask the question.

http://www.watoday.com.au/business/n...13-p4z9gs.html

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

People are already starting to ask the question.

http://www.watoday.com.au/business/n...13-p4z9gs.html

It’s a strong brand that has nothing left towards the roots it has developed over the last 50 or more years.

I don’t think it’ll survive as a GM brand (maybe it’ll be bought out my another brand ?). I give it 8 years max.

GM will pull out of Australia like they have in Europe.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

People are already starting to ask the question.

http://www.watoday.com.au/business/n...13-p4z9gs.html

Repost .... https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=196

[roddy1960]

I hope it does . Holden (Holdens) itself has a very long history even prior to cars I believe.

GMH has been an entity for such a long time too . No matter what Ford sells in Australia , the Blue Oval is the Blue Oval wherever you go on the planet where as the GM empire encompasses Holden , Vauxhall , Daewoo , Opel of course and one or two others . On the domestic U.S. market the Chevrolet , Buick ,Pontiac , Cadillac , Oldsmobile , De Soto way back I think , GMC etc, etc have morphed or disappeared under the General Motors banner over time .

Same with Ford on that front with Lincoln and previously Mercury until that was dissolved in 2010 and others over time. Around the world Ford dabbled with Jaguar , Volvo , Land Rover , Mazda etc over the years as well as we all know . I owned a Mazda 626 rebadged as a Ford Telstar that replaced the Cortina and many of us had Lasers that originated as the Mazda 323 that took over from the Mk2 Escort.

Also as we all know , nothing stays the same for too long in the turbulent ol' car industry . We were a bit luckier than many other Ford outposts in that Falcon stayed with us for so long apparently. These days though too much risk of low sales at stake to sustain stand alone models for small volume markets and sentiment or history saves or sells very little.

Just the same I hope the Holden badge adorns a few vehicles for a little while yet .

[Chopped]

Nope, it’s days are numbered. The brand is on the nose with buyers. Blame a decade plus of crappy rebadged hatchbacks and suvs plus the bogan image of the Commodore. Combined with the rise of Hyundai and Kia plus the increasing wealth of more and more Australians who started parking German brands in their driveways.

[GASWAGON]

Holden LOL!!!!

I just blew the doors off a VE SV6 Ute and i was barely trying in my mostly stock BF3 Wagon.

Sequential shift.....Changed down 2 gears and floored it.

He put his high beams on me ALLLL the way down the straight LOL!!!

[MITCHAY]

Nope they are on death row.

[mr smith]

Cactus...under 5 years.

[rjk74]

18 months

[Kingsley]

If the free fall down the sales ladder doesn't stop within the next 12 months, I suspect GM will either try to sell it off or dump the brand for Chevrolet.

[Brazen]

I dont think it will be replaced with Chevrolet, it will be sold to Opel and kept as Holden.

Already Spark, Trax, Astra and Commodore are sold in RHD UK and South Africa. So adding Australia would give a lot of RHD volume, and give a range that is consistent here. Also opens up the Opel/Vauxhall vans that we dont have and new SUVs that are built in RHD like the Grandland.

The issue may be Colorado/Trailblazer, but I think Holden would be able to keep selling it here as Australia is the biggest market for the Thai plant and GM would like the volume. Likewise they could probably keep the new Acadia under a licensing arrangement.

So Opel would be Europe and South Africa, Vauxhall in UK, and Holden here in Australia and New Zealand, all with roughly the same lineup and look.
Opel has big plans for world domination, so a ready-made dealer network and known brand in markets worth 1.2 million units a year would be very attractive.

Holden would make Vauxhall and RHD Opel markets significantly more viable.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

I hope it does . Holden (Holdens) itself has a very long history even prior to cars I believe.

GMH has been an entity for such a long time too . No matter what Ford sells in Australia , the Blue Oval is the Blue Oval wherever you go on the planet where as the GM empire encompasses Holden , Vauxhall , Daewoo , Opel of course and one or two others . On the domestic U.S. market the Chevrolet , Buick ,Pontiac , Cadillac , Oldsmobile , De Soto way back I think , GMC etc, etc have morphed or disappeared under the General Motors banner over time .

Same with Ford on that front with Lincoln and previously Mercury until that was dissolved in 2010 and others over time. Around the world Ford dabbled with Jaguar , Volvo , Land Rover , Mazda etc over the years as well as we all know . I owned a Mazda 626 rebadged as a Ford Telstar that replaced the Cortina and many of us had Lasers that originated as the Mazda 323 that took over from the Mk2 Escort.

Also as we all know , nothing stays the same for too long in the turbulent ol' car industry . We were a bit luckier than many other Ford outposts in that Falcon stayed with us for so long apparently. These days though too much risk of low sales at stake to sustain stand alone models for small volume markets and sentiment or history saves or sells very little.

Just the same I hope the Holden badge adorns a few vehicles for a little while yet .

De Soto was a Chrysler brand what closed in 1961, shame they made some nice cars.

GM closed Oakland, Saturn, Pontiac

[solarite_guy]

Oldsmobile too...was Lasalle GM?

[GASWAGON]

O.k so who owns Buick.

Remember the straiight 8 engine.......Pretty rare these days??

S.G......Wots the firing order of a straight 8????

[solarite_guy]

Buick is GM.

Firing orders for a straight would be up to combinations for flat plane, 90* cross plane and 45* cross plane. Of course you could do some 270* deals like Yahama has with it's rendition of the big bang motor, but I would think most would do a 90* cross plane these days. There is no accounting for the early days. Within each, there are optional orders.

hmmm? just thought a 45* cross plane crank would give a few big bang possibilities too...?

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by solarite_guy

Oldsmobile too...was Lasalle GM?

Yes LaSalle was a GM division.
They closed it in 1941, it was Cadillacs junior division and did quite well, but they decided to make the brand seem more upmarket and call them Cadillac's.

Ah not to forget Hummer and Saab.
Also a long forgotten brand called Marquette.

[lra]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Opel has big plans for world domination, so a ready-made dealer network and known brand in markets worth 1.2 million units a year would be very attractive.

Holden would make Vauxhall and RHD Opel markets significantly more viable.

But Opel is now owned by Peugeot, not GM, and they are paying GM for the rights to build them. That will not last beyond the current models.
Future Opels will be Peugeots/Citroens in drag, and neither of these companies have been successful in Australia in the past due to weird designs and build quality.
So their brands are on the nose here, but probably less so than the Holden lion at present.

[roddy1960]

All these years I had it that De Soto was GM ,don't know why . Sorry 'bout that .
Re Pontiac . I was surprised to find that one of Ford's long term affiliates in the U.S. , Mercury , didn't go until 2010 , the same year as Pontiac closed it's doors .

A really good friend runs Cranks and Tinkerers Museum here that features a lot of car enthusiast stuff . Ian , the curator has shown me several reference books about now defunct car and motor cycle manufacturers and it's quite phenomenal how many there have been . Here's some from the past 20 years just in the USA . Plymouth (Chrysler) went west in 2001 among them .

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...to-brands.html.

World scale Fiat is a huge player . Gee they are tied up with a good number of other brands .

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by lra

But Opel is now owned by Peugeot, not GM, and they are paying GM for the rights to build them. That will not last beyond the current models.
Future Opels will be Peugeots/Citroens in drag, and neither of these companies have been successful in Australia in the past due to weird designs and build quality.
So their brands are on the nose here, but probably less so than the Holden lion at present.

Personally I hope that doesn't happen , only because I don't trust Euro's much at all for this country .

Three different locals I know very well bought European , all brand new. . Number 1. Don't know or want to know the Peugeot model designation and was bought brand new about 11-12 years ago when he retired and honest injun it spent most of it's time back at the dealership . Lemon was a compliment . Owner was only telling us about some big problems with it a month or two ago at golf and how disappointing the Pug experience was for him .

The ABS failed , the computer was replaced a second time , the gearbox had issues constantly and parts took ages to arrive . He put up with it for about two years before he did a deal with the dealer and traded it on a second hand Mazda 3 . Ironically he also owned a red Series 1 AU station wagon that he still has , goes in places you'd never think on his intrepid fishing trips , has approaching 300,000 k's and he's never had to spend anything much on it at all. Sound familiar ? Years before he owned an XD Station wagon that went forever as well .

The second one was quite recent . The teacher and hubby bought a brand Tiguan (VW)new in 2016 . Among other silly faults was the stalling without notice . Most scary incident involved taking her son back to Uni one Sunday and the car just stopped mid intersection without warning . Another local Tiguan owner had the same issue as it turns out . Jill (teacher) had this happen a few times , took it back to the dealership and they couldn't guarantee a permanent fix , so she took a financial hit and traded it on a Corolla about a year ago .

One of our teacher aides bought a brand spanker little Mercedes hatch . Again tons of tech , looks okay but that's had brake fail matters , fault codes coming up and dodgey paint . It's currently having that rectified now .

We keep hearing about Euro quality , Euro styling , Euro reliability and such but to be brutally honest I would have no great faith in buying stuff from Europe these days .

Going by so many overall positive comments about Japanese and some Korean fare , Honda , Nissan , Toyota , Mitsubishi and more recently Kia and Hyundai , maybe money is better spent with vehicles sourced from there .

If Holden was offered up for sale , maybe Asian wouldn't be such a bad thing rather than a Peugeot link .

[roddy1960]

Then again if Holden or Ford or any other manufacturer are as dumb as this with such a blatantly obvious issue then they'll continue to be less relevant .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyzhI_3P_Hg .

Funny but sad at the same time .

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by solarite_guy

Buick is GM.

Firing orders for a straight would be up to combinations for flat plane, 90* cross plane and 45* cross plane. Of course you could do some 270* deals like Yahama has with it's rendition of the big bang motor, but I would think most would do a 90* cross plane these days. There is no accounting for the early days. Within each, there are optional orders.

hmmm? just thought a 45* cross plane crank would give a few big bang possibilities too...?

Buick straight eight firing order 1 6 2 5 8 3 7 4.
Problem with the straight eight was crank length and flex/whip.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by lra

But Opel is now owned by Peugeot, not GM, and they are paying GM for the rights to build them. That will not last beyond the current models.
Future Opels will be Peugeots/Citroens in drag, and neither of these companies have been successful in Australia in the past due to weird designs and build quality.
So their brands are on the nose here, but probably less so than the Holden lion at present.

PSA is now moving quickly to leave GM legacy platforms behind because of difficulty
meeting near future fuel economy targets in Europe.

Given how Holden's sales have collapsed in the last six months, I don't think GM will try too hard
to sell it, they have a hell of a road to go selling all the vehicles they have on the grass as well as
incoming shipments - a giant fire sale coming is coming in the next few months with very serious
consequences after that as I think a lot of dealer franchises basically become worthless thanks to
GM's utter mismanagement of Holden and zero transitioning of all of its high value costumers.

[solarite_guy]

That was a problem with the V16s too.

Half of the thought is, they didn't rev too much back then. The other half was the metallurgy wasn't too good.

My uncle had an early 30s straight 8 Pontiac too. I don't think I ever saw the engine.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by solarite_guy

That was a problem with the V16s too.

Half of the thought is, they didn't rev too much back then. The other half was the metallurgy wasn't too good.

My uncle had an early 30s straight 8 Pontiac too. I don't think I ever saw the engine.

V16s giving way to large capacity V8s was the first evolution in downsizing that been going on
for the last 80 or 90 years. As technology improved we saw even greater engine efficiency with
Small blocks replacing big blocks, Turbo and atmo V6s replacing small block V8s and now
Turbo I-4s replacing V6s.... the beat goes on...

[Cav]

Originally Posted by jpd80

PSA is now moving quickly to leave GM legacy platforms behind because of difficulty
meeting near future fuel economy targets in Europe.

Given how Holden's sales have collapsed in the last six months, I don't think GM will try too hard
to sell it, they have a hell of a road to go selling all the vehicles they have on the grass as well as
incoming shipments - a giant fire sale coming is coming in the next few months with very serious
consequences after that as I think a lot of dealer franchises basically become worthless thanks to
GM's utter mismanagement of Holden and zero transitioning of all of its high value costumers.

How can Holden maintain the 200 or so dealerships with sales outside the top ten?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Cav

How can Holden maintain the 200 or so dealerships with sales outside the top ten?

That's why I predicted "a giant fire sale is coming in the next few months with very serious
consequences after that as I think a lot of dealer franchises basically become worthless
thanks to GM's utter mismanagement of Holden and zero transitioning of all of its high value costumers."

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

Then again if Holden or Ford or any other manufacturer are as dumb as this with such a blatantly obvious issue then they'll continue to be less relevant .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyzhI_3P_Hg .

Funny but sad at the same time .

When traveling he basically tops up the oil and checks the fuel? The ACC is a toothless tiger for sure.

[Pepscobra]

Wow, I didn't realise it was so bad for Holden at the moment.
I'd be very sad to see the end of Holden in Australia, but it doesn't look great for them at the moment.

[jpd80]

GM is not really interested in RHD markets especially now that RHD Vauxhall is gone with Opel,
there's no real reason or incentive for them to stay in RHD markets, it's now just tokenage.
I think that's why we're seeing Holden spun the way it is, it exists as long as GM wants it to.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by lra

Future Opels will be Peugeots/Citroens in drag, and neither of these companies have been successful in Australia in the past due to weird designs and build quality.

As long as there are school teachers and academics, there will be French car buyers ... Peugeot, Citroen, Renault have always been their mainstay ... maybe they enjoy walking?