$40m taxpayer injection for lightweight Commodore

[Benjamin Smith]

Holden wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for all the money the government was putting in to it

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Benjamin Smith

Holden wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for all the money the government was putting in to it

Neither would the Falcon and Terri.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by stang65

I know Ford was involved in a new high tensile steel that was meant to be thinner than the current steel but stronger.

Ford have been using lightweight bake hardened steel since the AU. Thinner but stronger than the previous steel they used.

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Rolled steel has a weight of approx 7800 kg a cubic metre. Aluminium has a weight of 2600kg a cubic metre. ie Aluminium is roughly 1/3 the weight of rolled steel. To get a weight saving of 7% on a 1700kg Commodore, you need to knock off 119 kilograms. 119/2 x 3 = Thus the current weight of the steel panels they are looking to replace are 178 kilos, to be replaced with 59 kilo aluminium panels.

At a rough guess, they are taking out $170 of steel, and putting in $427 of aluminium. So adding about $260 of metal to the car. But I am pretty sure they will also need to change alot of the tooling too.

Its hard not to be a cynic with these announcements, so I am pretty sure we will find out (in 2013) that the panels they were referring to were the Holden badges on the front and rear of the car.

Aluminium bonnets require a lot more bracing to keep them from flopping around compared to steel, so that cuts the weight advantage a bit. Ford trialled aluminium bonnets on the BA, there was a black Fairmont Ghia with a buldge bonnet that PD were testing, but they found that the bonnet flopped around a lot and needed a lot more bracing to keep it rigid. It didn't progress any further than testing.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford have been using lightweight bake hardened steel since the AU. Thinner but stronger than the previous steel they used.


Aluminium bonnets require a lot more bracing to keep them from flopping around compared to steel, so that cuts the weight advantage a bit. Ford trialled aluminium bonnets on the BA, there was a black Fairmont Ghia with a buldge bonnet that PD were testing, but they found that the bonnet flopped around a lot and needed a lot more bracing to keep it rigid. It didn't progress any further than testing.

I could just imagine the implications of light skinned aluminium panels -

1) Cops getting into a shoot out, would hide behind the doors, after hanging their spare bullet proof jackets on the door for protection.
2) When you get locked out of the car, you simply use a stanley knife to cut into the door skin, and unlock the car.
3) The car gets a 5 star Ancap rating, except when hail storms are forecast, and then helmets (and protective padding) are required for driver and passengers.

[janddbone]

My 1967 Rover has an aluminum boot and bonnet, so it is not that radical. It is nice to have these sorts of panels light to use.

Would be nice if my Nissan Patrol had an aluminum bonnet, then I wouldn't throw me shoulder out every time I lift it!

[2011G6E]

Ah yes, a future with a light weight family sized car utilising modern materials...

We used to imagine back in the early eighties what "cars of the future" would be like. We didn't foresee that a simple base model V6 or straight 6 would have more power than the thumping V8's we all aspired to own, we didn't foresee the amazing fuel consumption figures you could get out of even a big V8...

...but we really didn't expect a family car to keep bloating in weight until the damn things weigh almost 1800kg...

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

...but we really didn't expect a family car to keep bloating in weight until the damn things weigh almost 1800kg...

This is what happens when people demand proper safety features or governments start mandating baseline crash safety. All this stuff isn't just made up of fairy dust you know...

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by vibe_xr6

hmmm, i personally think now they are getting ahead of the competition.

They've realised the Falcon isn't the "competition" anymore, it's a world market.
If they do it the benefits are there. Just look at the Jag XJ and the Audi A8. Both large vehicles but don't have the "average" weight of such behemoths, though they're not what you would call a light weight.

Holden is taking advantage of the $$ on offer and are (hopefully) putting them to good use. Ford did the same with the LPG and I4T. Hopefully we're seeing more innovation from these two.

[Polyal]

Or anywhere even remotely near the market segment of the commodore/falcon.

[jpd80]

Makes you wonder just what kind of weight saving can be had when the game isn't all about stiffening the body
for performance improvements or designing the cars to tow horse floats, car trailers and 23 foot caravans...

Ecoboost Falcon, lighter shell with 1500 KG towing capacity and 7.5 l/100 km fuel economy just like Ecoboost Mondeo....

[stang65]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

That'd be the Boron Alloy steel used in the FG.

Unless you're talking about this carbon nanotube stuff Ford US said they were fiddling with?

Yep thats it, I wasn`t saying Ford Aus, but hopefully it would trickle here eventually. Thanks.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Makes you wonder just what kind of weight saving can be had when the game isn't all about stiffening the body
for performance improvements or designing the cars to tow horse floats, car trailers and 23 foot caravans...

Ecoboost Falcon, lighter shell with 1500 KG towing capacity and 7.5 l/100 km fuel economy just like Ecoboost Mondeo....

Well I've always thought the Ecoboost Falcon should have a shorter front overhang (and different front and rear styling) to make it like a RWD Mondeo. Lopping some steel off the front end and that all alloy I4T ought to shed what, 100kg off the car? Then use forged alloy control arms in the IRS to cut some weight, plastic spare wheel well and boot floor and we're getting close...

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Or anywhere even remotely near the market segment of the commodore/falcon.

That has nothing to do with it.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Wretched

That has nothing to do with it.

Of course it does, its not as simple as just switching materials.

These cars are built to a budget, I cant see a $30-50k car having expensive materials added on the volumes they currently sell. While the commys export programs are greater than a falcon its hardly what you would define as a "world car".

Have a look at the cars that employe alternative materials, they are either true "world cars" or are priced accordingly.

BTW 7% reduction in FE is a massive claim.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Of course it does, its not as simple as just switching materials.

These cars are built to a budget, I cant see a $30-50k car having expensive materials added on the volumes they currently sell. While the commys export programs are greater than a falcon its hardly what you would define as a "world car".

Have a look at the cars that employe alternative materials, they are either true "world cars" or are priced accordingly.

BTW 7% reduction in FE is a massive claim.

Now did I even compare the local products to these cars? No I didn't. I simply used them as an example of already established LARGE cars that use aluminium panels and the benefits it provides.

I realise the costs of producing cars with aluminium panels but it wasn't what I was referring to. Ford in the US have used aluminium in cars for years. The Mustang GT has a bonnet made of aluminium as does the F-150. yes they sell more than the local cars here but it isn't the exotic material it used to be. Eventually carbon fibre will start to be used more often too.

If Holden can pull it off kudos to them. Even if it is a couple of panels, the boot, roof and or bonnet.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Well I've always thought the Ecoboost Falcon should have a shorter front overhang (and different front and rear styling) to make it like a RWD Mondeo. Lopping some steel off the front end and that all alloy I4T ought to shed what, 100kg off the car? Then use forged alloy control arms in the IRS to cut some weight, plastic spare wheel well and boot floor and we're getting close...

I read in another thread that SZ Territory's K-frame/ front suspension is lighter than it's predecessor. Is that true? if so how and will it also be a feature of the FG2, to really add to the advantage of less front end weight. EB Falcon could be one of the best balanced cars on the market if it has say rear mounted battery, EPAS etc

[Polyal]

Fair enough, but first you say the Falcon is not a competitor then you use two $150k+ cars as an example, there is a reason they can use it and thats because they can charge for it, so price is a pretty large factor.

Your right its nothing new, Ford even back in 2005 were developing Al suspension parts, all of it is really nice until you rationalize the cost of it. CF is even worse, until there is a better/more efficient way to manufacture parts with it it will always remain a costly material.

Agreed, if Holden pull it off all the power to them, but its sounds like more of the Caprice PPV to me, although this has a higher chance of happening. And unless they use it predominately structurally the gains wont be massive. I think the Jag's entire body structure is Al isnt it?

[JPFS1]

outer skins have very little impact on crash worthiness. There are many other issues/concerns that need to be considered when material changes are made to skin panels.

It is a significant change mid cycle for sure when you consider all the development and change that has to happen to pull it off. This of course is something that Holden would have been working on as part of the initial VE platform development though i'm sure.

[z80]

Carbon fibre would be my choice instead of aluminium.

It all sounds like lip service to me..

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

I read in another thread that SZ Territory's K-frame/ front suspension is lighter than it's predecessor. Is that true? if so how and will it also be a feature of the FG2, to really add to the advantage of less front end weight. EB Falcon could be one of the best balanced cars on the market if it has say rear mounted battery, EPAS etc

The FG got a whole heap of weight saves so that when it came out it would have a minimal weight increase. They managed to keep the weight gain to 14kg, which is much better then AU to BA which was a big increase.

[Nikked]

I would think the aluminum would be limited to a bonnet...

[2011G6E]

Aluminium panels aren't a huge problem (except when you have to have them fixed at the panel beaters) but alloy bodies make it harder for a car to pass crashworthiness.

Not only that, but insurance costs would go through the roof for the previously-mentioned problem with panel beating. The workers really need to know what they're doing as you don't get a second chance with alloy once it's been bent...sometimes a good crinkle that, with steel panels, would mean some beating and heat-shrinking, will simply be binned and replaced. I know that happens now sometimes, but once your car is a few years old, it'll become a problem.

If mass-production of carbon fiber can be done cheaply enough, it will be good too...but even less repairable than alloy.

There's no simple answers.

[mcnamg]

When I read the title of this thread I figured it was an article about the Cruze and someone was making a joke