Legal Minded, Not So Legal Minded, Opinionated, Maligned, Cheesed Off Or Plain Scared

[SEZ213]

As members of the AFF we have become (or were to begin with as it may be) incredibly passionate about many things – The vehicles we drive, own, who we share the roads with and how they drive as well.

With these points in mind, and noting the passion that I see in many members posts, I come to you with a proposal (and an approval from Russ – cheers for that! - I've posted it here as I believe it's technically automotive related, but feel free to move at your whim! )

Whilst people will suggest that there is little that we can do as individuals to deal with these frustrations, as a collective body of people, we hold a much stronger voice.

I believe from this collective voice (and with enough publicity behind it), it is possible to actually make the voice of the majority heard.

The concept that I have in mind is a draft proposal, available for all members of AFF to contribute to prior to a final draft and submission to the Federal Minister for transport as well as every single State and Local Government minister in your area regarding what we, as regular road users and enthusiasts, and just plain concerned citizens, believe are the best options to ensure that we as road users are all safe.

As a collective body, we talk a lot about these such rules and how they continually effect us, a small percentage of us actually write to our local MP's etc., this may just provide the tools to attempt to have some impact of the current legislation.

This proposal will not just entail the current stipulations for driving regulations but also how easy it is to obtain a licence, keep a licence, and what legislation should be when it comes to policing of minor speeding infringements, ADR's, etc.

Currently there are numerous state based laws which are seen to be overruled by commonwealth laws (as applicable).

My proposal is to target each individual issue in depth, and any issue that you as members of a democratic society deems suitable for discussion and collaboration.

Yes, it is a pie in the sky idea, but so was Einstein and his theory of relativity (among others). :P

We can remain quiet and continue to grumble about these things or we can put some action behind the grumbles and make it virtually impossible for us a society to remain unheard.

If anything a politician wants to be elected (or re-elected as it may be), I think most you would find, particularly the opposition, will jump on the bandwagon if it means some extra votes for them.

So, in saying all of this – if you do have suggestions as to what needs to be raised in this proposal, please let me know. If you have factual evidence behind it, please also include this, as it will save me a lot of time.

Whatever it is that grinds your gears (legitimate), please do post.

If you make note of education in road users, please note the particular area you see as the concern, as specific as possible, and it will make it much easier for me and anyone else who decides to help me work on this mammoth project

NOTE:

- I DO NOT want rants about revenue raising – this proposal will NOT make any allegations or purport to know this as fact (regardless of feelings or media coverage on such matters).

- This proposal will be based around FACTUAL and STATISTICAL information, experience and possible legal precedent (if required or deemed necessary, or if there is any).

- So please, be constructive and be considerate. The last thing I want is this thread closed because people start bickering or slipping away from the actual cause here.

- This will not be a quick fix, as a proposal of this nature will require quite some time and effort to ensure that it actually will be heard – patience is a virtue, and perhaps, just perhaps, we might get a positive outcome for everyone.[/list]

EDIT: If you can please also let me know roughly what area you're from and I will endeavour to find out information where possible on local/state laws applicable to your area (if they are local/state issues).

[04redxr8]

Great idea. Do you want us to just our ideas here?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Ok.. why not,

What grinds my gears?

* The proposed tolerance for speeding that does not match the tolerance allowed in car speedos. So a person may be caught speeding when their car actually shows they are not.

* The way you keep your demerit points even if you take your matter to court and they find you were wrongly fined / charged. (So you get the fine dropped, but not the points... go figure).

* The way modified or 'tampered with' cars may be put under further scrutiny in the future. Yet I can find a 1930-60's car, restore it to factory specs and drive it as I please. Which one is less safe I wonder?

* A curfew for P platers I hear? What's next...

* The replacement of cops on the beat with covert camera law enforcement.

Cheers,

Jason

[SEZ213]

Yep! That would be great, then we probably won't get too many reposts of the same suggestion, just additions to the evidence behind it.

I'm guessing this thread will get rather long, but that's okay!

[Road_Warrior]

Uniform national driving standards and road rules, we're half way there with vehicle and license classifications so its time to complete the package.

Uniform national standards on the usage and deployment of revenue-generating traffic enforcement devices (speed cameras) with greater transparency of use to avoid "predatory" deployment (ie so they can't be hidden).

Compulsory minimum 3rd party insurance for all motorists.

Prohibition on local government from conducting traffic enforcement functions - this should be the reserved authority of the Police and no one else.

Accountability of government bureaucrats who invent some of the twaddle policy that the rest of us have to swallow. For example, the Office of Road Safety in WA is 'under the wing' of the Department of Premier and Cabinet; the ORS resisted calls to be moved under the Department for Transport because they "enjoyed the clout" that comes with being with the Department of Premier and Cabinet to "get things done". More like, they wanted to keep hiding behind the Premier's office so they didn't need to be accountable to the public.

[Yaw]

I will go one step further than uniform Traffic/Transport departments.

I would like to see a SINGLE federal transport department rather than state based.

[04redxr8]

A federal licensing policy. This suggestion may annoy some people, but here goes.

Before a learner driver is allowed to apply for their provisional license, they complete at least a 2 day driver traing course. At the end of the driver training course, an accredited driving trainer, will then evaluate the driver. Evaluation should be on car control, confidence in emergency situations, wet weather car control, and an ability to observe their surroundings while driving. If a student fails, they must redo the course, until they pass. The course will be paid for by the applicant, with no Government subsidy for learners. Once the applicant has demonstrated that they are able to operate a car in a safe and competant manner, only then may they proceed to obtaining their provisional license.

A further more advanced course should also be applied prior to a provisional license holder obtaining an open license.

All current open license holders should also be retested at license renewal time. (Say every 5 years). An open license holder failing the course will result in the license being suspended until such time as the applicant can pass the course, demostrating that they can safely operate a motor vehicle.

Again, the applicant should pay for the course. Driving is a privilidge. NOT A GOD GIVEN RIGHT. If it was, law enforcement wouldn't be able to suspend licenses.

People of retirement age (65) should be tested every 2 years, with a Government subsidy for pensioners.

The Government would then need to assist in building motor sport and skidpan facilities for driver training, and also for drivers to practice. These facilities should also be able to cater to enthusiast groups, who would like somewhere safe and legal to practice their driving skills.

People whose license have been suspended, will need to do a more thorough course, before having their licenses reinstated.

Minor road offences should be dealt with cautions, while more serious infringements should result in tougher punishment (longer loss of license for high speed, jail for DUI-no ifs, buts or court trials).

Drivers who are cause accidents or appear to be incompetant (driving way too slow, not knowing how to merge, poor car in lane management, and just in general useless drivers), should have their licenses immediately suspended until they can successfully pass the driver training.

These driver training days could be used to show as many videos and images of real road deaths as our government wants. (Don''t want to see them- don't apply for a license).

The program should be designed by a panel of independant driver trainers, and should have no Government or beauracratic influence regarding structure, course content, or practices.


All foreign visitor and immigrants (regardless of country of origon, or past driving history) will undergo the same courses before being able to hold an Australian drivers license. International Licenses should not be accepted.


And lastly drivers will take full responsibility for all their own actions on the road.


Sorry for the essay, being thinking about that idea for a long time.

[GT69]

Clearer, bleedingly obvious speed signs, think lights. School zones to all get the lights informing when they are active and when they are not. Leave no doubt in anyone's mind what the speed limit is and thus removing any excuses.

Focusing on more than just speed, more RBT's and licence/rego checks, harsher penalties for people found driving disqualified.

Better training for all drivers, remove the stigma of 'A to B' and have people understand that what they are driving is a lethal weapon, not a fridge.

I have more, but my minds drawing a blank

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

A federal licensing policy. This suggestion may annoy some people, but here goes.

Fantastic idea - I would be keen to know why you think people would be annoyed with this? This is also a relevant issue when you note that people are moving interstate more frequently, incurring a cost every time they move state and change their licence over - a federal licencing policy could potentially render these additional fees that we pay to do so, null and void.

You've come up with some great suggestions here, and definitely some worth exploring a little more in depth to see where I can slot them into what is now being dubbed by me as the 'novel'...

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Fantastic idea - I would be keen to know why you think people would be annoyed with this? This is also a relevant issue when you note that people are moving interstate more frequently, incurring a cost every time they move state and change their licence over - a federal licencing policy could potentially render these additional fees that we pay to do so, null and void.

You've come up with some great suggestions here, and definitely some worth exploring a little more in depth to see where I can slot them into what is now being dubbed by me as the 'novel'...

Mostlt because this idea would involve all drivers having to do the course every 5 years. As new technologies are released, and cars change, so too the need for us to change our driving habits.

Also we would be more informed of any road rule changes at the time.

[Road Games]

Two things spring to mind ..

1: The P plater that sits up my backside every time i am travelling under or on the speed limit in whatever speed zone but isnt allowed to exceed 100kph on a 110kph freeway.

2: The undercover cop in the (information with-held so that ignoramus P-plater may actually learn something) trying to bait me into a drag race.

The new HOON laws are an absolute farce!!!

[My poor XF]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Compulsory minimum 3rd party insurance for all motorists.

I think this is an excellent idea.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by My poor XF

I think this is an excellent idea.

I have a question - CTP (compulsory third party) is compulsory - which state is it not CTP and just TP insurance?

This is an interesting one...

[Iggypoppin']

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I have a question - CTP (compulsory third party) is compulsory - which state is it not CTP and just TP insurance?

This is an interesting one...

I think they are saying that the CTP should be property damage insurance as well as personal injury.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

I think they are saying that the CTP should be property damage insurance as well as personal injury.

Spot on.

[1970XW351]

To me, the whole full on driver training thing is redundant... That being said I was handed the keys to my dad's work ute at 15 and told "drive"... if I slacked off the pace I was promptly informed "if a semi comes up behind you, he'll run right over the top of you"... So I learned to keep to the speed limit, regardless of terrain and learned to drive to suit that. I grew up on a farm and had to drive on gravel roads as well as bitumen. My biggest kick in the pants was at age 16 when I was headed into work (over an hour away) and hit an uphill segment with too much speed on gravel, lost the car, went broadside at 90* each way and then spun out 180*. I tried to weasel out and get my Mum to drive me the rest of the way, but was unsympathetically told to get on with it and drive myself to work... These two things helped to cement the crucial elements of driving in my mind. Sure, I've acted a right twat in subsequent years on occasion (when the situation was right), but in 12 years of full time road occupation, I have had a grand total of one speeding infringement... I think what is needed is a greater range of experience in learner drivers i.e. Gravel, wet, night, daytime driving. Also I understand that I may have been lucky in the type of parents I have, but to me as a parent myself, I would want my daughter to have experience with all types of terrain and I also think tests should only be given in manual cars as it gives you far more feedback than an automatic.

As it stands presently, it is all about jumping through the hoops to get a license and nothing more. There needs to be more accountability and a greater teaching of respect of the various conditions that drivers will come across, rather than just "do x hours of blah, z hours of naf and t hours of zuh, stall d times, say boo g times and the license is yours... I feel there is also too much emphasis placed on speed limits by speed cameras etc, without enough emphasis on reading road conditions and adjusting speed and attitude to suit.

Another thing. Drivers sticking to right hand lane in zones over 80kmph... WTF??? have you read the licensing guidebook recently guys?
As others have stated, a mandatory test every 5 years could weed out a lot of the more dangerous folk from our highways and biways.

All of that being said, I guess what I am trying to get across is that nothing educates more than an unexpected loss of control and whilst skidpan driver training is all the rage and probably very good, nothing can come close to hands on, real world experience... Maybe some sort of holiday driving camp in the bush coupled with higher expectations and to a certain degree, greater cost in obtaining a license?

[Ibrox90]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Uniform national driving standards and road rules, we're half way there with vehicle and license classifications so its time to complete the package.

Uniform national standards on the usage and deployment of revenue-generating traffic enforcement devices (speed cameras) with greater transparency of use to avoid "predatory" deployment (ie so they can't be hidden).

Compulsory minimum 3rd party insurance for all motorists.

Prohibition on local government from conducting traffic enforcement functions - this should be the reserved authority of the Police and no one else.

Accountability of government bureaucrats who invent some of the twaddle policy that the rest of us have to swallow. For example, the Office of Road Safety in WA is 'under the wing' of the Department of Premier and Cabinet; the ORS resisted calls to be moved under the Department for Transport because they "enjoyed the clout" that comes with being with the Department of Premier and Cabinet to "get things done". More like, they wanted to keep hiding behind the Premier's office so they didn't need to be accountable to the public.

Woeful idea this will destroy the Australian car culture this exist in the uk and you find that no one under 25 can afford a car

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by Ibrox90

Woeful idea this will destroy the Australian car culture this exist in the uk and you find that no one under 25 can afford a car

Which idea is woeful? Can you suggest something better?

[Geez Louise]

What a fantastic idea. Great to see someone actually putting something together...not just talking about it. Well done!

I do have some suggestions but want to get facts before I post them up.

[Yellow_Festiva]

I missed one....

E10! I mean, is it 91, 92, 93, 94 or 95 RON?? And if ethanol is an octane booster, what is the base product they are blending it with to get 91RON E10?

What will the drivers of cars not E10 compatible do once ULP is gone? Run E10 at the detriment of their fuel system, or spend an extra 10-15cpl for premium?

There are still a lot of newer cars on the road that are not E10 compatible and this decision is to the detriment of those drivers.

[xc4me]

this is a great idea, ditto what geez louise wrote!

[Yellow_Festiva]

Agree regarding the different road rules and vehicle regulations for each state and territory.

Taking the best parts from each state and making a nation wide rule book will be much better and easier, and probably save many millions in the process.

[Jack91]

CTP should also include 3rd party property damage in registration fee, or, you have to supply proof you have this cover from another insurer.

Slim down the hours new drivers on their L's need, make it say 20 hours, however, include a mandatory skidpan/defensive driving course before the driving test. This fee can be added to the license fee of your first provisional license.

Abolish the Learner and Provisional rules of 80 or 90km/hr maximum speed, this contributes greatly to other road users' anger and can cause a bad situation with other inpatient drivers.

Heavy policing of headlights at night, including dazzling other drivers with high beams and people who drive with park lights on only.

"Hooning" laws should be rid of entirely. Stick with undue noise and driving dangerousley/etc.

Maybe provide an incentive for young drivers to buy newer cars with ABS etc. Could be a reduction in rego fees by $20 for every safety feature.

5 yearly refresher course, just a quick drive with an instructor for all license holders. Will be included in rego fee.

Roadworks signs and speed limits should be removed after hours/on weekends if the road is up to scratch.

Police and issue fines to people driving too slowly, this creates as big of a risk as driving too fast. (say 10% under the limit is a small fine or a warning)(trucks and genuine excuses are allowed obviousely).

Any road in which a speed camera or radar is deployed, that road must have adequate signage of what the speed limit is (I got done 60km/h in a 50km/h, without knowing it was a 50 zone. No sign at all on this road and it was mainly industrial)

[Riksta]

Originally Posted by DAVO_XR

CTP should also include 3rd party property damage in registration fee, or, you have to supply proof you have this cover from another insurer.

I love this idea, however, lets also allow us to choose our CTP Bodily Injury (compulsory) insurer and put some competition into the market, might help reduce some of our registration costs if we can shop around instead of having no option but to go with who they tell us.

Licensing should be more expensive (don't shoot me!). I feel that nearing the end of an L plate period, an extensive defensive driver training course should be compulsory, paid for by the person going for their license. Likewise, the same kind of course but more advanced should be gone through before graduating to a full license. Now, I know its a bit draconian, but if you have to work harder and pay more to get a license, people might respect the PRIVILEGE (not a right) to drive on our roads.

Minimum amounts of hours L plate drivers have to log before being able to graduate to P plates. Now I know this is already in place, but I'm thinking minimum amount of hours with an ACCREDITED driving instructor. Let them still drive the family around with mum or dad in the passenger seat as more practice, but don't count these hours towards what is required. Make them learn and serve their hours with someone who is fully accredited and recognised to perform those duties.

An instant prison term (say 1 month?) for anybody caught driving on a disqualified license. Too many times I hear of people who have been caught driving on a disqualified license only to have the disqualification extended by a few more months. HELLO, they've been driving disqualified already, do you think extending that period is going to deter them? The thought of a month long stint in a cell with a bloke named Bubba might make people think twice about driving while disqualified.

This is all I can think of at the moment but I'm sure with a bit more thought I'll come up with some more!

[Bundy]

Originally Posted by DAVO_XR

Maybe provide an incentive for young drivers to buy newer cars with ABS etc. Could be a reduction in rego fees by $20 for every safety feature.

Take this Brillant Idea one step further, MAJOR Discounts on Insurance, CTP and Rego related costs for all 4-5 star ANCAP rated cars, for people of ALL ages.

Thus giving an incentive to remove most of the 10+ year rust ridden bombs from our roads.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by bundy

Take this Brillant Idea one step further, MAJOR Discounts on Insurance, CTP and Rego related costs for all 4-5 star ANCAP rated cars, for people of ALL ages.

Thus giving an incentive to remove most of the 10+ year rust ridden bombs from our roads.

Seriously? My Prado is more than ten years old, and I'm willing to bet that it has less rust in it that a two year old Territory.

How far back do ANCAP ratings go? When you were a P-Plater, could you have afforded a car less than five years old? I couldn't.

[Bundy]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Seriously? My Prado is more than ten years old, and I'm willing to bet that it has less rust in it that a two year old Territory.

How far back do ANCAP ratings go? When you were a P-Plater, could you have afforded a car less than five years old? I couldn't.

Yes Seriously.

Let me explain a little more. Removing older poorly maintained cars from our roads must be a PIROITY if we want road SAFTEY to take the serious steps needed; light vehicles are one of these aspects, there are others too, like road conditions, driver training/retraining, LV & HV fatigue management etc etc. If we need a national system like whats done in NSW with pink and green slips to help, maybe that needs to be looked at too.

As for "how far back do ANCAP Ratings go?" Who cares, my point was to give discounts on those that do now.

Also IF P-Platers were to be given a Govt substity, like trade apprenctices get for tools or even a specific low interest rate loan for the sole purpose of buying a 4-5 star ANCAP rated car and other discounts are in place like I've listed in my previous post, car manufaucturers can mass produce and move a higher volume for those cars prices would come down a lot sooner too.

These are just ideas, like the thread suggested. If you, like me are wanting to keep vehicles over 10yrs old then thats our choice too.

[King Nothing]

Can't believe I missed this thread! I'll try to keep it brief;

Speeding tolerances - Expecting a tolerance of less than 10% on speeding is unworkable and technically impossible. ADR 18/02 (here http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/CE8FB62999AD4D2CCA2571CD007A1C21/$file/ADR1802FINALFRLI.pdf ) section 18.5.1.1.2 states that speedometers are manufactured with a tolerance of +-10%, and is applicable to cars made up to July 2006 when ADR 18/03 is applicable. So a driver can travel at what they understand is the speed limit yet be fined if a 4km/h (or 3km/h in Vic) tolerance is applied.

Industry support - We need industry support, or else we won't be listened to. Especially in regards to vehicle modification regulations. If it will impact on businesses then we need to get them on side.

Contacts - A couple of contact from the RTA
Dan Leavy: Dan_LEAVY@rta.nsw.gov.au - Principle Policy Manager
Gabriel Denoury: Gabriel_Denoury@rta.nsw.gov.au - Project Engineer, Safer Vehicles Branch
Keith Simmons General Manager, Safer Vehicles (I guess email is in the same format as above)

Industry groups
- Australian National Four Wheel Drive Council - involved in discussions with RTA about VSI 50
- NSW-ACT Four Wheel Drive Council - as above
- Australian Automotive Aftermarket Association (AAAA)
- Australian Street Rods Federation (ASRF) - in talks with RTA about incoming NCOP rules and how they apply to street rods, "Elvis" has indicated that they are considering an umbrella group involving a large range of industry groups similar to NZ LVVTA.

I'd be willing to donate some time, PM me if you want.

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Simplify the rules for P platers : Only allow them cars up to 4 cyclinders, normally asperated, up to certain KW output.

What's quicker, (both stock) XD 302 or Focus Zetec?

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Seriously what are some parents out there thinking when they buy their son a $50000 car as their first vehicle?

Agreed!

Originally Posted by bundy

Yes Seriously.

Let me explain a little more. Removing older poorly maintained cars from our roads must be a PIROITY if we want road SAFTEY to take the serious steps needed

Then most of the member on this forum loos there car. Most would be pre 1998 and whilst not poorly maintained, this will be the discresion of the police/RTA.

Originally Posted by bundy

If we need a national system like whats done in NSW with pink and green slips to help, maybe that needs to be looked at too.

OK, I have never had to get a slip, I only hear about them, I also hear they are incredibly easy to get, also based on cars I have seen from NSW, I wouldn't think they are thorough.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by bundy

Also IF P-Platers were to be given a Govt substity, like trade apprenctices get for tools or even a specific low interest rate loan for the sole purpose of buying a 4-5 star ANCAP rated car and other discounts are in place like I've listed in my previous post, car manufaucturers can mass produce and move a higher volume for those cars prices would come down a lot sooner too.

I listened to my parents and did the whole buy a new small safe car thing for my first car, shelled out $18,000 of my hard earned, I service it every 7500km with top quality oils and OEM filters, then the insurance company turns around and demands $2040 a year for insurance with me listed as driving my own car, 50% of the time?

I like the idea of the subsidy, like I get for my tools, but the insurance companies are just going to turn around and stick it up where the sun don't shine like they have done with me. You make the sensible choice then get done over badly. Now if I go to sell it, I'm going to lose $5000 on it when I tried to sell it because I bought a new car, I get the crappy end of the stick in all situations (except if I stack it, which is still crap anyways).

I got some quotes, it turns out its not much more to insure a jap import than it is for my bloody Fiesta. Its $2500 for a 1994 JZA80 Toyota Supra with me driving 100% of the time at just car, compared to $2040 with Dad (50 y/o rating 1, me 18 y/o worst rating) with me only 50% of the time at AAMI. Me 100% of the time at Just Car is $2226 for my Fiesta.

I've never been so angry in my life when I found out about that, it makes me very angry just thinking about it no.

Better off just buying a few $500 XF Falcons, third party insurance and drive them all into the ground over the next few years.