Holden but interesting read

[Tonz]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/
I joined Holden in the 70s. But even back then, I could see cracks starting to appear

[Raptor]

This is the link you were after Tonz;
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-...-wall/11984836

An SLR XU1 heh Yep, that guy sure knows his Holdens

And he was an early 20's 'no-nothing' District Sales Manager. Might have been the start of the problem IMHO



.

[jpd80]

Back in the day, Holden had 38% market share - double what Toyota has today.
The big killer was fuel price rises in the 70s and 80s, imports were contained by
tariffs but once those limits were limited, local manufacturing was struck a fatal blow
People then had choice and they voted with their $$$$$$$.

[Tickford.]

Originally Posted by Raptor

And he was an early 20's 'no-nothing' Distract Sales Manager. Might have been the start of the problem IMHO

Well yes, a Distracted Sales Manager would explain a lot, no doubt.

[jpd80]

The Japanese embraced quality at the core of manufacturing right around the time that
US and British auto manufacturers started taking their markets for granted, it wasn't just us

.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The Japanese embraced quality at the core of manufacturing right around the time that
US and British auto manufacturers started taking their markets for granted, it wasn't just us

.

I don't have any experience with pre 70's Japanese cars...but I tell you what the 70s Japanese cars were top notch from an engineering perspective.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by cs123

I don't have any experience with pre 70's Japanese cars...but I tell you what the 70s Japanese cars were top notch from an engineering perspective.

brother had a Datsun 180B and the thing I never liked about Jap cars were the painted metal door panels (plus they were thin doors) as opposed to aussie cars having full plastic/vinyl door card and trim.
Never looked finished to me.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by cs123

I don't have any experience with pre 70's Japanese cars...but I tell you what the 70s Japanese cars were top notch from an engineering perspective.

Think Korean cars in the 90s (eg Daewoo) or Chinese cars now.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by cs123

I don't have any experience with pre 70's Japanese cars...but I tell you what the 70s Japanese cars were top notch from an engineering perspective.

Toyota Crown was a good vehicle, the I-6 was a dead set knock-off of the Mercedes Benz,
Law suits, interesting times...

[BA-XT]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The Japanese embraced quality at the core of manufacturing right around the time that
US and British auto manufacturers started taking their markets for granted, it wasn't just us

.

This.

My grandparents came over in 1964 as the "10 pound POMS" (they were Scottish.... but it's just a border) and to my grandfathers credit he asked what car should he get.... So his first car was a very early 1960's Holden (the classic old shape) which was unreliable... but then decided to buy a near brand new 1967 Holden. No carpet. AM radio. No heater. From the stories mum told me spent most time in the mechanics until the engine fell out..... literally fell out.

Bought a Mitsubishi Gallant and then later on a second had Datsun 180B. Drove to Queensland and Adelaide multiple times without issues.

The quality of Australian cars was shocking. Yeah the tariffs thing didn't help... but the Japanese was so far advanced and ahead in quality compared to Holden and Ford in the 1970's.

[ozpacman]

Originally Posted by Raptor

An SLR XU1 heh Yep, that guy sure knows his Holdens .

Yeah I chuckled at that one as well Raptor.

In fairness to him though, he mentions it was a prototype/evaluation vehicle so who knows what moniker the engineering team may have given it at the time.

A bit like Ford's project name of 'Blackwood' for the XD Falcon whilst it was under development.

[Express]

Originally Posted by Raptor

This is the link you were after Tonz;
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-...-wall/11984836

An SLR XU1 heh Yep, that guy sure knows his Holdens

And he was an early 20's 'no-nothing' District Sales Manager. Might have been the start of the problem IMHO
.

Due to a shortage of brand new cars from time to time, it was sometimes hard to for the company to find me a mainstream production vehicle as a company car.

So I was often given unusual vehicles, some of them coming from the promotional pool.

One that stands out was the specially built Torana SLR XU1 police evaluation vehicle, which I was trusted with at the tender age of 22.

A special car with "Bathurst" engine mods, racing suspension and close-ratio gearbox, but with no external body modifications indicating anything other than a standard Torana SLR.

He does point out it was Police evaluation vehicle and doesn't say it ever went into production.

So he may have his facts right.





.

[Tonz]

as an ex kiwi, when still living there dad had a Honda car agency in south Island, N360, N600, first Civics, then onto Accords. Ne Zealand motor corp realised that english cars were being priced off the market by Aussie stuff, so they went to Japan Honda and arranged to assemble the Civics in NZ, we could sell easily 2 year old Civics at a higher price than NZ assembled. that was quality talking.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Tonz

as an ex kiwi, when still living there dad had a Honda car agency in south Island, N360, N600, first Civics, then onto Accords. Ne Zealand motor corp realised that english cars were being priced off the market by Aussie stuff, so they went to Japan Honda and arranged to assemble the Civics in NZ, we could sell easily 2 year old Civics at a higher price than NZ assembled. that was quality talking.

70s 80s Honda were a nice car. Said brother that had the Datsun traded it for a new 82 Honda Accord, still has it, still like new. They were well built.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by Tonz

as an ex kiwi, when still living there dad had a Honda car agency in south Island, N360, N600, first Civics, then onto Accords. Ne Zealand motor corp realised that english cars were being priced off the market by Aussie stuff, so they went to Japan Honda and arranged to assemble the Civics in NZ, we could sell easily 2 year old Civics at a higher price than NZ assembled. that was quality talking.

When I was living in Nelson I got to know an old fella that used to work at the Nelson Honda plant. He was one of the guys that were tasked with burying Honda shells out the back when they closed it down. All in ckd form.
When I moved over to Aus in 2008 he still had 5-6 brand new flat pack Honda city shells in his shed haha.

[eb2fairmont]

The slr xu1

Definitely didn’t get a gig at Toyota after.

[Sprintey]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

That is all.

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by Tonz

https://www.abc.net.au/news/
I joined Holden in the 70s. But even back then, I could see cracks starting to appear

Yeah, same here. Cracks in my HG frame near the roll bar front mounting points and under the firewall cab. Also the folks 4 pot LC Torana had the front lower trailing arms push the mounts out of the frame/body. Great camber angles. HQ? Crikey, where do I start.

[mick taylor]

There is a XU2 LH SLR 5000 Torana.
And a XV1 LH Torana G-pack.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by BA-XT

This.

My grandparents came over in 1964 as the "10 pound POMS" (they were Scottish.... but it's just a border) and to my grandfathers credit he asked what car should he get.... So his first car was a very early 1960's Holden (the classic old shape) which was unreliable... but then decided to buy a near brand new 1967 Holden. No carpet. AM radio. No heater. From the stories mum told me spent most time in the mechanics until the engine fell out..... literally fell out.

Bought a Mitsubishi Gallant and then later on a second had Datsun 180B. Drove to Queensland and Adelaide multiple times without issues.

The quality of Australian cars was shocking. Yeah the tariffs thing didn't help... but the Japanese was so far advanced and ahead in quality compared to Holden and Ford in the 1970's.

But were they really? How many 70's model Jap cars do you see still around, compared to 70's model Fords and Holdens. The Jap cars were throw away items.

[BA-XT]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

But were they really? How many 70's model Jap cars do you see still around, compared to 70's model Fords and Holdens. The Jap cars were throw away items.

That's true. I can only go by what I know. My boss at work had an EH Kingswood as a first car and again - broke down with no carpet ect. Dad had a cortina and traded it for a Gallant as well. Would be fair to say that at the time the Japanese cars certainly offered more than the cars ford and Holden were throwing out at the time.

[IanC]

I had a 78 HZ Kingswood which I bought in 1980. I drove that car for 25 years with only minimal repairs such as exhausts and clutches. When I sold it in 2005 it was still going strong. The reason I sold it was because I wanted auto transmission, power steering and air conditioning. It didn't have any of them. About 3 years ago I got a phone call from the current owner. It is still going strong. The two main reasons it lasted were regular servicing and I sprayed fish oil into the panels every few years. I have no doubt that a 78 Falcon that had been looked after well would have done equally well.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by IanC

I had a 78 HZ Kingswood which I bought in 1980. I drove that car for 25 years with only minimal repairs such as exhausts and clutches. When I sold it in 2005 it was still going strong. The reason I sold it was because I wanted auto transmission, power steering and air conditioning. It didn't have any of them. About 3 years ago I got a phone call from the current owner. It is still going strong. The two main reasons it lasted were regular servicing and I sprayed fish oil into the panels every few years. I have no doubt that a 78 Falcon that had been looked after well would have done equally well.

Yep, me too. Owned heaps of 70's ones. Never had any major issues with them. Only dud I ever bought was a Friday afternoon assembled new WB panel van.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

But were they really? How many 70's model Jap cars do you see still around, compared to 70's model Fords and Holdens. The Jap cars were throw away items.

One dude was telling me that the VL Nissan 6 was rubbish with problems, I said that's just BS, fact is if you service and maintain any thing correctly you will or can save yourself a lot of bother.

Most people who own a car are a goose, and back in the days of FJ Holden's and XK Falcons etc most people would just put water in the radiator and then drive till the radiator was totally buggered, but come Alloy heads well such clowns ended up with big problems and the radiator in such cars should be serviced, I can not remember what goes wrong in the VL Radiator something up top ? but the Falcon one gunk's up the bottom lines.

Then there are the problems just as with any car that things brake or don't last etc etc, if you have a car that has done over 200.000km you are looking for trouble and if you are not going to truly maintain such you are just looking for more trouble. let alone who had driven such, even if it has not been driven fast it may of been abused by a hopeless driver, especially with trucks a clown can be very destructive.

I have people claiming that the Toyota Crown was such a great car, to me it was Gay but ok yes a nice car but not for me, but this mob are putting a HQ 202 kingswood up against such as a Crown, but I would never want a 202 HQ it would be a 308 for me thank you, so the crown is Gay as a 202 is Gay to me. so that I would not own such a car in the first place. it would be a HQ GTS 308 or 308 Premier or Statesman that I would be looking at, ok the quality build of the HQ some were shocking but not all

Another clown claimed Holdens and Fords were all just total rubbish, he had a VN V6 Calais with the shocking caff cuter engine and before that a gutless LH Torana G-Pak and he was ranting about his Nissan what ever, it was Gay to me regardless I would not own such a car, I had a VY Commodore SS and anyone who would try to bag such as that must be an idiot.

What would I buy new in 1970 Holden HT GTS308 Monaro 4speed.
What would I buy new in 1979 Holden SL/E Commodore 5.0L 4speed.
Who could bag them cars as rubbish only a fool.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

One dude was telling me that the VL Nissan 6 was rubbish with problems, I said that's just BS, fact is if you service and maintain any thing correctly you will or can save yourself a lot of bother.

Most people who own a car are a goose, and back in the days of FJ Holden's and XK Falcons etc most people would just put water in the radiator and then drive till the radiator was totally buggered, but come Alloy heads well such clowns ended up with big problems and the radiator in such cars should be serviced, I can not remember what goes wrong in the VL Radiator something up top ? but the Falcon one gunk's up the bottom lines.

Then there are the problems just as with any car that things brake or don't last etc etc, if you have a car that has done over 200.000km you are looking for trouble and if you are not going to truly maintain such you are just looking for more trouble. let alone who had driven such, even if it has not been driven fast it may of been abused by a hopeless driver, especially with trucks a clown can be very destructive.

I have people claiming that the Toyota Crown was such a great car, to me it was Gay but ok yes a nice car but not for me, but this mob are putting a HQ 202 kingswood up against such as a Crown, but I would never want a 202 HQ it would be a 308 for me thank you, so the crown is Gay as a 202 is Gay to me. so that I would not own such a car in the first place. it would be a HQ GTS 308 or 308 Premier or Statesman that I would be looking at, ok the quality build of the HQ some were shocking but not all

Another clown claimed Holdens and Fords were all just total rubbish, he had a VN V6 Calais with the shocking caff cuter engine and before that a gutless LH Torana G-Pak and he was ranting about his Nissan what ever, it was Gay to me regardless I would not own such a car, I had a VY Commodore SS and anyone who would try to bag such as that must be an idiot.

What would I buy new in 1970 Holden HT GTS308 Monaro 4speed.
What would I buy new in 1979 Holden SL/E Commodore 5.0L 4speed.
Who could bag them cars as rubbish only a fool.

I got to say Holden had good simple engines back then, I've had 186's, 202's stock, mild, fully worked, mild, worked 253 and 308s never had one self destruct through misuse or otherwise and ran them really hard. 202's I used in several courier cars (O/D) at the time and found them super reliable with good fuel consumption probably the only reason I didn't use V8's.
I must admit when you combined the best of Japanese with Australian stuff it certainly improved driveability as well (in my case using modified 5 speed Supra transmissions with hydraulic clutches) Nissan powered VL Commodore was a good selling car at the time (once buyers got their head around a Jap engine).
My own comparison between my current (1979 style) 93 XF panel van to a full chassis HQ-WB panel van the Holden is a much better finished vehicle.

Sorry Bossxr8 and others.

Things such as the Ford unibody, rear shocks, fuel tank accessibility, door closure finish, the way the lines of the later Falcon panel van looks awkward with the door roof alignment, the stock rear track looks strange from certain angles. The Holden panel van looked like it was designed to be a panel van, not a car with an extra high roof added like the Ford does even with an old style body on full chassis design.

With the end of the XC Ford and Holden HZ I can remember so many buyers not wanting to go to a smaller car like the Commodore and XD and I reckon this is where the Japanese car culture started to bite. It was engrained that the big family sedan was king and if you had to go smaller why not get all the bells and whistles of a cheaper optioned up Jap cruiser for the price of a VB or XD Aussie car.

Late 70's, my mates and I always laughed at owners of Jap stuff then and couldn't understand why anyone would buy one or a small Aussie Falcon and Commodore.
Times have changed.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I got to say Holden had good simple engines back then, I've had 186's, 202's stock, mild, fully worked, mild, worked 253 and 308s never had one self destruct through misuse or otherwise and ran them really hard. 202's I used in several courier cars (O/D) at the time and found them super reliable with good fuel consumption probably the only reason I didn't use V8's.
I must admit when you combined the best of Japanese with Australian stuff it certainly improved driveability as well (in my case using modified 5 speed Supra transmissions with hydraulic clutches) Nissan powered VL Commodore was a good selling car at the time (once buyers got their head around a Jap engine).
My own comparison between my current (1979 style) 93 XF panel van to a full chassis HQ-WB panel van the Holden is a much better finished vehicle.

Sorry Bossxr8 and others.

Things such as the Ford unibody, rear shocks, fuel tank accessibility, door closure finish, the way the lines of the later Falcon panel van looks awkward with the door roof alignment, the stock rear track looks strange from certain angles. The Holden panel van looked like it was designed to be a panel van, not a car with an extra high roof added like the Ford does even with an old style body on full chassis design.

With the end of the XC Ford and Holden HZ I can remember so many buyers not wanting to go to a smaller car like the Commodore and XD and I reckon this is where the Japanese car culture started to bite. It was engrained that the big family sedan was king and if you had to go smaller why not get all the bells and whistles of a cheaper optioned up Jap cruiser for the price of a VB or XD Aussie car.

Late 70's, my mates and I always laughed at owners of Jap stuff then and couldn't understand why anyone would buy one or a small Aussie Falcon and Commodore.
Times have changed.

A mate once commented on my HX Sandman as being once a ute that must of been turned into a P Van, well not true, but .
My 1993 XG Falcon Longreach ute from new I myself thought that it must of had fallen off the transport truck and went back to ford to be fixed but with the date build being the march and the date I got it there would not be time to do such. tho I loved the car.
I liked the look of my XC Falcon P Vans both were 12 slot wheels and GS grill and bonnet. barn doors they had there good points and tail gate type had it's good points.

As to engines I have never blown one of mine up, dropped a head off a valve in my $500 3.3L 20yo XC Van in 1998 and put a rod through the block on my mums HJ 202 but I knew that was on the cards 6 months before as it had started a death rattle on cold start up, but the old man rejected my warning.
The 202 did big end bearings due to 3rd rate quality rod bolts that would stretch and some valve collets that lacked quality or weak valve springs due to getting to hot maybe, I believe that as the valve gets into a phase where it isolates this becomes harsh on the collet, let alone valve bounce and on top of all that is idiots not maintaining oil changes and oil and air filters, not to mention out of tune even the plugs are buggered driving about month after month, I hear such even nowadays getting about, no wonder a engine driven about like that will not last.

When the ADR 27A HX Holden came out I worked at a Motel and all the reps would start the 202 HX up in the morning and rev them up as they had to, the XC 4.1L And Valiants were fine. the 5.0L HX were total gutless as one dude I know had a 5.0L HX Sandman ute 4sp stock with single exhaust, when he drove my HX with a stock HT 308 with dual exhaust, he was running about in big circles he could not believe the power difference.

[lra]

He may be just suffering old age memory fade, and confusion with years and models. But then, why not specify if it was a LJ or LH.

It may have been a LJ XU2, which Holden were going to release, one of them overpowered ‘killer supercars’ that were far too powerful for sale the general public at the time. Like the HO Ph4.

The LH SLR was introduced in early 1974, so I doubt if he was driving an unreleased model that the public had seen. If the date was later, it may have been a prototype L34. Doesn’t really matter anymore. Most enthusiasts were born after this all happened.

As for the 70’s writing on the wall, I could never understand why people rushed out to trade in Kingswoods and Falcons for a Corolla or 120Y. Just to save a couple of dollars in fuel consumption.

[mick taylor]

I think in the 70's it was then that a lot of women were starting to drive their own cars as to why so many 4 cyl cars. Oh and the world was running out of fuel back then, I worked in a servo 1977 it was serious as the Climate Change is now, people would be ranting at others that owned a V8 you are chewing up our fuel etc.

I remember something about a so called LJ XU2, it had a 308 in it, such a car would be a death trap. 3 were made I think just for the track, a 202 XU-1 would be much better than any 308 in them any day.

The So called XY GT-HO P4 was not going to be as powerful as the P3 it had a smaller Cam lower compression and a higher diff ratio, you could not drive a P3 with a 3.25 or 2.92 ratio the car was heaver and cutting through the wind better is f all difference to a XY.

On the compliance some SL/R 5000 LH Torana's have XU2 on them or L34.

[Tonz]

Originally Posted by lra

As for the 70’s writing on the wall, I could never understand why people rushed out to trade in Kingswoods and Falcons for a Corolla or 120Y. Just to save a couple of dollars in fuel consumption.

You, obviously were not around at the time, some people thought it was a sign of the end of the world.............

[lra]

Originally Posted by Tonz

You, obviously were not around at the time, some people thought it was a sign of the end of the world.............

I remember very well the 1972 Evan Green ‘supercar scare’ that predicted we would all die as a result of grossly over-powered uncontrollable un-guideded missiles on public roads.

I bought a new Kingswood 186S in 1968. It died from rust and engine failure in early 1974, just in time for me to order a 202 LH SLR, sight unseen, which turned out to be the biggest POS that I have ever owned. That was traded on HJ Kingswood 12 months later.

I remember the ‘odds and evens’ rationing of petrol, and wondered why people were trading ‘gas guzzling’ 6s and V8s to gain an extra 5 >10 mpg when they got SFA trade on a 4 cyl. I did the sums, and they didn’t compute to a logical financial result. It didn’t compute then, and doesn’t compute now, with our being herded into ever-decreasing engine sizes some people think will stave off the end of the world............. if Convid19 doesn’t get in first.

So, yeah, I think I obviously was.