China's first aircraft carrier 'starts sea trials'

[ford man xf]

China's first aircraft carrier 'starts sea trials'



The 300m (990ft) carrier has been one of China's worst-kept secrets, analysts say
The Chinese navy's first aircraft carrier has begun its sea trials, the state-run Xinhua news agency has said.

It quoted military sources as saying that the refitted former Soviet warship left its shipyard in the north-east and the trial "would not take a long time".

The move is likely to raise fresh concerns over China's rapid military build-up.

Beijing is currently involved in several maritime territorial disputes, particularly in the South China Sea.

The aircraft carrier left its shipyard at Dalian Port in northeast Liaoning Province on Wednesday morning, Xinhua reported.

"Military sources said that the first sea trial was in line with the schedule of the carrier refitting project," it said.

"After returning from the sea trial, the aircraft carrier will continue refit and test work."

Xinhua did not provide any further details.

The BBC's Michael Bristow in Beijing says China is years away from being able to deploy this carrier as a potent military tool. Even so, the country's neighbours will be worried.

Many are involved in disputes with China over maritime borders - and they will be looking anxiously at Beijing's naval build-up, our correspondent says.

Run-ins at sea

The carrier in question is a former Soviet warship, which was formerly called the Varyag.

It is a relatively old design and it was not built by China. It was constructed in the 1980s for the navy of the USSR, but was never completed. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the rusting hull of the Varyag sat in dockyards in Ukraine.

Continue reading the main story
China extending military reach
As other Soviet warships were cut up for scrap, a Chinese company with links to China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) bought the Varyag claiming it wanted to turn it into a floating casino in Macau. It took several years to finally tow it all the way to China, where it was then taken to Dalian.

In June, the PLA confirmed that China's first aircraft carrier was under construction.

However, Beijing has recently sought to downplay the capabilities of the carrier, saying it would be used for training and research.

China's military is generally believed to be 20 years behind America's in its development. But in its rapid expansion, China is focusing on weapons designed to blunt US military power, analysts say.

The PLA has invested heavily in submarines. It is believed to be close to deploying the world's first "carrier-killer" ballistic missile, designed to sink aircraft carriers while they are manoeuvring at sea up to 1,500km (930 miles) offshore, and it is building its own stealth fighter aircraft along with advanced carrier-based aircraft built from Russian designs.

All of these can target US bases, US ships and US carriers in Asia. They will make it much more dangerous for US carrier fleets to operate close to China's coast, pushing them out further offshore.

Taiwan, Korea and Japan that look to the US for their security may start to question how much America can really protect them in future, analysts say.

A Japanese defence study last week expressed concern about what it called China's failure to explain its military ambitions.

In the past year, China has had maritime run-ins with Japan, Vietnam and also the Philippines over disputed territories in the area.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14470882

[ford man xf]

China extending military reach
By Jonathan Marcus

BBC Defence and Diplomatic Correspondent


China admitted its first aircraft carrier was under construction earlier this year

A maritime arms race is under way in the South China Sea. Beijing is rapidly developing a host of military capabilities that will enable it to project power well beyond its own shores.

It is already the dominant regional naval power and many of its new systems could one day threaten US naval dominance as well.

No wonder then that so many of its neighbours are worried; particularly those like Vietnam and the Philippines who are engaged in long-running maritime disputes with Beijing.

According to Dr Andrew Erickson, a China expert at the US Naval War College: "China does not want to start a war, but rather seeks to wield its growing military might to 'win without fighting' by deterring actions that it views as detrimental to its core national interests."

Three weapons systems are emblematic of China's broadening strategic horizons.

Continue reading the main story
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China's new billionaires
Asia Business news
China's first aircraft carrier will begin sea trials later this year. Late last year, the first pictures were leaked of the prototype of Beijing's new "stealth" fighter. And US military experts believe that China has begun to deploy the world's first long-range ballistic missile capable of hitting a moving ship at sea.

Dr Erickson says China's capabilities thus far have been focused on developing a regional anti-access or area denial strategy to prevent Taiwan from declaring independence.

In part this strategy rests upon developing credible weapons systems to hold US carrier battle groups at risk should Washington elect to intervene.


The 'carrier killer'

China deploys a formidable array of missiles and other weapons that range far out from its own shores.

Of these, the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile is unique; a land-based system that could potentially target US carrier battle groups that have long been the corner-stone of Washington's maritime might.


The DF-21 could be used to hit targets hundreds of miles away The DF-21D (known in the West as the CSS-5) is fired from a wheeled transporter vehicle and has a range in excess of 1,500km. It is armed with a manoeuvrable warhead that gives the Chinese military the ability to strike ships in the western Pacific Ocean.

American officials and the director-general of Taiwan's National Security Bureau say that China has already begun to deploy the DF-21D.

It is easy to see why China would want such a missile. It is all about limiting the pre-eminent naval power in the region, the US, from intervening in any future crisis involving Taiwan.

Home of the Flying Shark

Ever since the Pacific campaign of World War II, aircraft carriers have been the dominant means of projecting naval power.

American carrier battle groups incorporate large flight-decks with a diverse array of aircraft for a variety of missions. Each carrier is accompanied and protected by several other warships and submarines.

Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
The unveiling of the Chengdu J-20 is believed to bring China into the restricted ranks of those countries able to build a "stealth" fighter”
End Quote China too is now entering the carrier race, albeit from a standing start. An old Soviet-era carrier - the Varyag - was purchased from Ukraine and has been extensively refitted.

China's first carrier will operate the new J-15 Flying Shark strike fighter, based on another Russian design, the Sukhoi SU-33 jet.

According to the respected industry journal Aviation Week & Space Technology, China may well have acquired an SU-33 prototype from Ukraine as well.

The carrier is reported to be due to begin sea trials in the summer. Once operational it would give the Chinese Navy a significant new capability in its continuing disputes with its maritime neighbours.

But Western experts note that this carrier will largely serve a training role. Carrier operations require significant expertise which can only be built up over time. The vessel is unlikely to deploy the wide range of aircraft available to the commander of a US Naval carrier air group.

Nonetheless, Dr Erickson says China will use the carrier to "project a bit of power, confer prestige on a rising great power, and master basic procedures".

Great ambitions

China's land-based aviation is also advancing steadily. Traditionally it has mostly fielded large numbers of locally-produced copies of Soviet-era jets.


China's J-20 prototype had its maiden flight in Chengdu earlier this month However the unveiling of the Chengdu J-20 is believed to bring China into the restricted ranks of those countries able to build a fifth-generation radar-evading or "stealth" fighter.

Its maiden flight, last January, came only hours before a visit by the US Defence Secretary Robert Gates to Beijing, a coincidence which many analysts saw as a deliberate signal by China.

Douglas Barrie, from the International Institute of Strategic Studies in London, says China's J-20 cannot match the US equivalents.

But he added: "The aircraft does mark China's ambitions in terms of developing its air combat capability, and of its defence aerospace industrial base."

Questions though still surround the project.

"Whether the J-20 is an actual fighter prototype or a technology demonstrator, remains to become clear, and this will in part determine how quickly China introduces such a capability into service," Mr Barrie said.

"An introduction into service, perhaps around the turn of the decade, would seem reasonable."

That said, what would be the strategic significance of the J-20, given that by then the US will field hundreds of fifth generation fighters?

Mr Barrie argues that the introduction of significant numbers of J-20-based fighters would "pose an increased challenge to other regional powers, and to US forces in Asia Pacific".

But across the board experts are cautious about all of China's apparent great leaps forward in terms of military hardware.

US commanders are watching developments closely. China is putting down markers for the future. But in the near-term it still must look on jealously at America's maritime power.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13761711

[hawker]

Strike while the iron is hot, the only forward delopyment US aircraft carrier (deployed to Japan) USS George Washington - isn't going home anytime soon - I think it's near Australian at the moment!

[SteveJH]

This has been on the cards for years. A couple of years ago they even built a mockup flight deck on the roof of an office building.

[Poidevin]

Meh, a legitamite superpower increases it's navy/airforce power. I really like how the article makes it out to be some huge military ramp up by China.

Doubt there will be an Taiwan specific conflict, China is just trying to project some power and security into the Asia Pacific region. Which is perfectly fine as it is an Asian nation (as opposed to the US trying to mantain itself as a hegemon in the post WWII/Cold War era) trying to exert some influence over the Asia Pacific region.
The missiles could be used for anything, doesn't have to be US centric and I doubt China is going to role out all their new aircraft carriers to Taiwan.

(If you're interested I'm a politics/IR/Security student at the moment with a focus on the Asia Pacific region, not trying to sound cocky, just want you to know I have, what I hope, is a slightly educated view on the Asia Pacific region)

[GTPete]

Originally Posted by Poidevin

Meh, a legitamite superpower increases it's navy/airforce power. I really like how the article makes it out to be some huge military ramp up by China.

Doubt there will be an Taiwan specific conflict, China is just trying to project some power and security into the Asia Pacific region. Which is perfectly fine as it is an Asian nation (as opposed to the US trying to mantain itself as a hegemon in the post WWII/Cold War era) trying to exert some influence over the Asia Pacific region.
The missiles could be used for anything, doesn't have to be US centric and I doubt China is going to role out all their new aircraft carriers to Taiwan.

(If you're interested I'm a politics/IR/Security student at the moment with a focus on the Asia Pacific region, not trying to sound cocky, just want you to know I have, what I hope, is a slightly educated view on the Asia Pacific region)

There was a thread started a while back on Chinas Military Build up, it makes for good reading if you are interested in searching for it.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Poidevin

Meh, a legitamite superpower increases it's navy/airforce power. I really like how the article makes it out to be some huge military ramp up by China.

Doubt there will be an Taiwan specific conflict, China is just trying to project some power and security into the Asia Pacific region. Which is perfectly fine as it is an Asian nation (as opposed to the US trying to mantain itself as a hegemon in the post WWII/Cold War era) trying to exert some influence over the Asia Pacific region.
The missiles could be used for anything, doesn't have to be US centric and I doubt China is going to role out all their new aircraft carriers to Taiwan.

(If you're interested I'm a politics/IR/Security student at the moment with a focus on the Asia Pacific region, not trying to sound cocky, just want you to know I have, what I hope, is a slightly educated view on the Asia Pacific region)

I would be interested to get your view on whether we underestimate China's power and influence. I know it's a totally different era than World War 2, the Japanese weren't taken too seriously as a threat until it was too late, they had an empire and weren't taken all that serious.

China would be pretty foolish to take any action against another nation, China is in a very good position as it is, there really wouldn't be a need for China to attack anyone, and I doubt very much they would even be a threat to Australia, would they even have the capabilities?

[JG66ME]

This is an ex Russian carrier bought incomplete. They where not supposed to use it for military purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...carrier_Varyag

[ltd]

Originally Posted by JG66ME

This is an ex Russian carrier bought incomplete. They where not supposed to use it for military purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...carrier_Varyag

Floating casino my butt.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ltd

Floating casino my butt.

I would say that a place where you are gambling something, in this case you life, could possibly be called a casino.......

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by ltd

Floating casino my butt.

The former Soviet carrier Kiev is now a hotel in China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...t_carrier_Kiev

[hawker]

Originally Posted by JG66ME

This is an ex Russian carrier bought incomplete. They where not supposed to use it for military purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...carrier_Varyag

That's like handing someone an AK-47 and saying, it just needs a spring, but don't use it as a gun! :P Unless they were going to turn it into razor blades !

Melbourne was very outdated from the get-go, it was falling apart by the 60's (and not just because it kept hitting other ships!) and had to undergo a major refit (where they did a lot of 'other' work)!

I think it was just one of those cases where we didn't want to let it go, at all. I love hearing stories about the HMAS Melbourne early on, my grandfather was part of the commissioning crew. Because it had so many problems early on, the crew were stuck in the UK for a while - so they drank themselves from one side of Europe to the other!

The newer ships coming to the RAN are going to bring some of that aviation capability back (not to the extent of Melbourne and Sydney): http://www.navy.gov.au/Canberra_Class

[Neale]

Originally Posted by hawker

I think it was just one of those cases where we didn't want to let it go, at all. I love hearing stories about the HMAS Melbourne early on, my grandfather was part of the commissioning crew. Because it had so many problems early on, the crew were stuck in the UK for a while - so they drank themselves from one side of Europe to the other!

My pop used to work on the Fairy Gannets. One of his friends told us a story from when they were over in Europe & a bunch of guys were trying to smuggle a heap of french wine back to aus in the bomb bay of a fairy gannet.

only problem was, either the pilot didnt know or forgot. He did a fly past of one of the aerodromes & opened the bomb bay doors as part of the show when all this fancy french wine fell out & went all over the runway.

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by hawker

Melbourne was very outdated from the get-go, it was falling apart by the 60's (and not just because it kept hitting other ships!) and had to undergo a major refit (where they did a lot of 'other' work)!

I think it was just one of those cases where we didn't want to let it go, at all. I love hearing stories about the HMAS Melbourne early on, my grandfather was part of the commissioning crew. Because it had so many problems early on, the crew were stuck in the UK for a while - so they drank themselves from one side of Europe to the other!

http://www.navy.gov.au/Canberra_Class

HMAS Sydney and Melbourne where Majestic class ships, along with the Colossus class, (16 in total both classes) where part of a rapid build up during WW2. All of the Majestic class where completed after the war and all where sold off. Most where modified to have an angled deck and they served with many navies around he world.

The fact is they where built to a lower standard than the Illustrious class as the Royal Navy needed ships in quantity and quality was less of a consideration. Having said that many of them have lasted into the 1980s and one Brazilian ship lasted until 2004. They did what they where designed to do.

HMS Theseus, Ocean, Triumph and HMAS Sydney did great things in Korea

A guy I work with served on Melbourne and we often chat about her.

[Franco Cozzo]

Going by the furniture we get built in China for us at work, don't be too worried, lol.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Going by the furniture we get built in China for us at work, don't be too worried, lol.

You do realise that China makes (and designs) its own fighters?
Weapons systems, warships, missiles, rockets, radar, satellites etc etc etc...

Basing your assumtions of chinese quality on crappy furniture is dangerous.

[Badcooky]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

You do realise that China makes (and designs) its own fighters?
Weapons systems, warships, missiles, rockets, radar, satellites etc etc etc...

Basing your assumtions of chinese quality on crappy furniture is dangerous.

Hey as crazy old Josef Stalin once said.
"There's a quality to quantity"
And he had heaps of good big kids toys from about 1943 to 1953,got his sandbox back with them too.

[Pis-ton broke]

and india has a carrier to?, lol. have you seen the build quality of anything from india?

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

and india has a carrier to?, lol. have you seen the build quality of anything from india?

HMS HERMES. Fought in the Falklands. It is a better ship than the Melbourne ever was. Now about to be replaced. Australia turned it down.

Typical arrogant racist type comments. India will have three aircraft carrier battle groups by 2020. And do not say they cannot fight or they are thick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hermes_(R12)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Viraat

India is about to become a world power. Australia is having a BBQ. We are telling ourselves how good we are.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Badcooky

Hey as crazy old Josef Stalin once said.
"There's a quality to quantity"
And he had heaps of good big kids toys from about 1943 to 1953,got his sandbox back with them too.

It was different back then though, troop numbers were probably an armies most important asset.

But now it isn't, you can't send hundreds of thousands of troops to destroy an aircraft carrier, stealth bomber or cruise missile.

Technology is where its at now, but in saying that you still need soldiers to take and hold ground.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It was different back then though, troop numbers were probably an armies most important asset.

But now it isn't, you can't send hundreds of thousands of troops to destroy an aircraft carrier, stealth bomber or cruise missile.

Technology is where its at now, but in saying that you still need soldiers to take and hold ground.

The best weapon ever built is the AK47, stick it in the hands of a determined foe and all the technology in the world won’t stop him.....

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It was different back then though, troop numbers were probably an armies most important asset.

But now it isn't, you can't send hundreds of thousands of troops to destroy an aircraft carrier, stealth bomber or cruise missile.

Technology is where its at now, but in saying that you still need soldiers to take and hold ground.

Manufacturing and soliders is what wins wars. Japanese admiral once stated that America's industrial might was such an advantage that he thought they had no chance against the US and that was prior to their attack on Pearl Harbour.

China now can be seen as having the same advantage America had back in WWII

[FalconForce]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Going by the furniture we get built in China for us at work, don't be too worried, lol.

does that mean they can be defeated by an allen key?

[Keepleft]

Thought I'd drag this back up:-

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/w...ietnam-report/

[Road_Warrior]

Yes, this thread has been done before and yes that carrier is the former Soviet Aircraft Carrying Missile Cruiser Varyag.

One other thing: it's one thing to have an aircraft carrier, it's something else entirely to be able to use it as intended. That only comes with time and experience. China simply isnt going to be able to run out and start conducting flight ops efficiently with a view to mounting offensive operations in the manner the US does - it's going to take them years.

[Stazza_Brendan]

Hmmm so it doesnt run under nuclear power according to Wikipedia. Surely that would hinder its operational area.

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by Stazza_Brendan

Hmmm so it doesnt run under nuclear power according to Wikipedia. Surely that would hinder its operational area.

The two new 65,000 ton British carriers are not Nuclear either. Range is extend by Replenishment At Sea (RAS). In this case the gas turbines use Jet fuel and even US Nimitz class carriers have to RAS for jet fuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Queen_Elizabeth_(R08)

[XESP351]

Originally Posted by JG66ME

In this case the gas turbines use Jet fuel and even US Nimitz class carriers have to RAS for jet fuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Queen_Elizabeth_(R08)

Gas Turbine propulsion plants in marine application do not necessarily have to run on jet fuel, they simply run on marine diesel fuel.

[XESP351]

Don't think the US would be too worried at this stage (or any country for that matter). Building a recycled carrier (which carries helicopters as opposed to fighter jets) is one thing and using it to the extent US, UK, France etc do is something else.

[Neale]

I got an email about what China have in the pipeline as far as aircraft carriers go.

This is the big daddy of them all:-

These aircraft carriers look formidable and of ultra modern design. There are reports the 1st Chinese aircraft carrier is under construction and could enter service around 2015 or earlier. It won't be long before we see the real thing. Defense analysts are waiting; watching anxiously.





THIS IS QUANTUM LEAP ABOVE ANYTHING WE HAVE ON THE DRAWING BOARD. THEY HAVE THOUGHT " OUTSIDE THE BOX " ON THIS ONE. BETTER SPEED, LARGER CAPACITY, MUCH MORE STABLE, ETC. DEFINITELY A " BLUE-WATER " LONG REACH VESSEL.
PLUS THEY CAN SERVICE THEIR NUKE SUB FLEET IN-BETWEEN THE TWIN HULLS ( SIGHT UNSEEN ) OR EVEN LAUNCH AMPHIBIOUS OPPS FROM SAME. IT WILL BE LAUNCHED IN HALF THE TIME IT TAKES THE USA AT JUST ONE-THIRD THE COST. ADD THE NEW CHINESE STEALTH FIGHTER BOMBER ( NAVAL VERSION ALREADY FLIGHT TESTING ) IN THE MIX AND YOU HAVE THE MAKINGS OF A FORMIDABLE WEAPONS SYSTEM INDEED..
ALSO LOOK AT THAT EXTRA ''PARKING AND READINESS'' STATION BETWEEN BOTH HULL STRUCTURES.. AND OF COURSE THE LAUNCHING AND LANDING CAPABILITIES FROM THE UTILIZATION OF TWIN FLIGHT DECKS AT ONCE

P.S. SOME THOUGHT SHOULD BE GIVEN TO ADVISING YOUR GRANDCHILDREN TO LEARN TO SPEAK MANDARIN ( FORGET SPANISH ) MY " VERY, VERY BRIGHT " 15-YEAR OLD 3rd COUSIN HAS ALREADY BEEN ADVISED TO DO SO BY PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABOUT SUCH THINGS.


P.P.S SIX OF THESE VESSELS ( TWO PACIFIC, TWO ATLANTIC, ONE INDIAN OCEAN AND ONE MED SEA ) WOULD BE A PRETTY GOOD DIPLOMATIC " BIG STICK ".
NOTE: THE CHINESE ARE ALREADY DRILLING FOR OIL OFF CUBA, BRAZIL AND VENEZUELA. CAN THEY BUILD A FLEET OF THESE THINGS ???

A FEW FACTS: THE CHINESE HAVE COMPLETED THE WORLD'S BIGGEST DAM ( THREE GORGES ),
THE WORLD'S LONGEST OVER-WATER BRIDGE ( 65 TIMES AS MUCH STEEL AS IN THE EIFFEL TOWER ).
CONSTRUCTED A 15,000 ' HIGH RAILROAD INTO TIBET (ALL CONSIDERED MAJOR ENGINEERING FEATS).

THEY ARE THE ONLY NATION OTHER THAN RUSSIA THAT CAN LAUNCH MEN INTO OUTER SPACE ( USA'S CAPABILITY ENDS WITH THE LAST SPACE SHUTTLE LAUNCH THIS MONTH ).
THEY HAVE ALSO SHOT DOWN A SURVEILLANCE SATELLITE ( ONE OF THEIR OWN )
FROM THE GROUND. PLUS THEY " OWN OUR *** " IN THE INTERNATIONAL DEBT GAME.

CHINA'S NEW A/C CARRIER COULD BE TWICE AS FAST AS ANYTHING WE HAVE, PLUS THE STABILITY OF A CATAMARAN TYPE HULL WILL GREATLY REDUCE THE PITCHING, YAWING AND SWAYING COMMON TO OUR PRESENT DESIGNS

P.S. sorry about the caps it was a cut & paste